Teens learn better if allowed to sleep longer: This paper uses data on all middle school students in Wake County, NC from 1999-2006 to study the impact of start times on academic performance. … The differences in start time across schools is generated by bus scheduling concerns, while the differences within schools are driven by population growth. … I find that a one hour later start time increases standardized test scores on both math and reading test by three percentile points. Since start times may be correlated with other determinants of test scores, I also estimate the effect using only variation in start times within schools over time and find a two percentile point improvement. The effect of start times on academic performance is robust to different specifications and sources of variation. The magnitude of the effect is similar to the difference in test scores for one additional year of parental education.
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parents don't pay for the bus drivers but SAT Prep. Schools don't pay for the SAT Prep but the bus drivers. I see no problem. Especially when my school doesn't even have buses.
I've tried sleeping earlier and honestly it didn't help at all. and also it was proven that teens have a easier time focusing on work and whatnot at later times there were several times that my highschool started at around 9:00, 9:15 or 9:30 due to finals and whatnot and there seemed to be no problem whatsoever because most of the people at my school walk to school anyways and i'm pretty sure alot of people actually liked that schedule a lot better including my parents
In Australia, we all started at around 8:45-9:00. I guess that is because we don't rely on school buses over here. I used to get up at at around 8:30 and still manage to ride the ~3km to high school by ~8:55+-.
Rank these 10 subjects in order of overall learning importance:
I've chosen 2 subjects from Science, Social Studies, English, Foreign Language, and Math.
Chemistry, Physics, US History, Economics/Personal Finance, American Literature, Writing, Foreign Language I, Foreign Language II, Algebra, and Geometry.
FYI. I'm especially excited to hear why Physics is more important for high school students to know and understand than Personal Economics.
"There’s an obvious alternative to later school start times: earlier bed times for teens."
Of course someone who never had trouble waking up early would say this. Teens have trouble waking up early more than younger or older people. *I* have trouble waking up early, or at any given time every day, more than 99.5% of everyone. I have tried for many years to adjust to a given time for waking up, and I can tell you that it's absolutely impossible for me. Many teens have exactly the same problem I do to a much lesser degree. Going to bed earlier is not an option. Laying in bed, awake, for an hour or more, doing nothing but trying to go to sleep, does not make you more rested in the mornings.
Over long periods, people can't change their natural sleep schedules more than about 30 minutes in either direction without huge disruptions, such as wildly varying amounts of sleep and being *extremely* sleepy when forced to wake up early. If you naturally go to bed at 12, it's simply not possible to go to bed at 10:30 every night without making huge adjustments in your life, and for many it's not possible full stop.
There's plenty you can do to mess up your own sleep, but there's a limit on what you can do to fix it.
This is more or less what I was getting ready to say. It seems to me that having your teens go to bed earlier would have the same effect. More, a later start tie for school would just encourage them to stay up even later. We'd just end up chasing them around the clock.
Which doesn't negate the point about schools as socializing for industrial society -- something increasingly irrelevant (see Florida on the Creative Class). It would be nice if we replaced schooling with learning, but th latter requires the participation of the person, while the former does not. Let's talk about how to realistically deal with that.
I seem to recall a couple of years ago Fairfax county parents and school board reviewed the issue, concluded the reports were right about teens, tried to find a way to let teens sleep later, and gave up because they couldn't figure out how to manage the bus schedule around other parental constraints.
It would be indeed be interesting to compare spending on SAT prep. to hiring more bus drivers.
This is probably why so much bullying goes on as well as blaming the victims of bullying -- teachers don't really care who beats the shit out of who as long as they don't have to deal with it.
There's an obvious alternative to later school start times: earlier bed times for teens. The paper makes only fleeting references to this. It claims that hormones make it more difficult for adolescents to adjust to earlier bed times (not that it's impossible for them to go to bed earlier; just that it's a hard adjustment), and also that sports, work, family and social schedules (i.e., staying up till midnight texting your friends??) make it difficult for teens to get to bed early.
Well, it may be a lot more fun for teens to stay up late and show up to school later in the morning, but should we alter our school schedules for the chief purpose of accommodating teens' preferences?
My parents enforced a 10:30 bedtime for my siblings and I on school nights, and I often voluntarily awoke early so that I could play Tradewars on a BBS and not get yelled at for tying up the phone line (ahh, the days before the Internet was in every household). Maybe I was a freak (in more ways than my sleep habits, probably), but I never had trouble staying awake for my morning classes.
In "When Brute Force Fails" Mark Kleiman argues that holding off releasing kids from school before adults get back from work would significantly reduce the crime rate. He blames judging the school system only based on school performance (rather than broader social ramifications) and teachers who want less traffic for their commutes.
In the case of my school district, the superintendent claimed that the early start time was so that students who participated in sports and other extracurricular activities wouldn't have to leave school early to make it to events on time. Other people said that many students preferred the earlier start time because it gave them more time in the afternoon to work at a part-time job.
Jess Riedel: I've never attended a school that met for 8 hours. They've all been 7 hours. And I've only ever been to one school that started at 9:00, and that was a middle school. One school I went to for fourth grade started at 8:30. Other than that, every school I've gone to started at 7:45 and ended at 2:45, even in Kindergarten. So, what on earth are you talking about?
AYEEEEEE NOOO -.-
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parents don't pay for the bus drivers but SAT Prep. Schools don't pay for the SAT Prep but the bus drivers. I see no problem. Especially when my school doesn't even have buses.
I've tried sleeping earlier and honestly it didn't help at all. and also it was proven that teens have a easier time focusing on work and whatnot at later times there were several times that my highschool started at around 9:00, 9:15 or 9:30 due to finals and whatnot and there seemed to be no problem whatsoever because most of the people at my school walk to school anyways and i'm pretty sure alot of people actually liked that schedule a lot better including my parents
In Australia, we all started at around 8:45-9:00. I guess that is because we don't rely on school buses over here. I used to get up at at around 8:30 and still manage to ride the ~3km to high school by ~8:55+-.
@Sandeep
Rank these 10 subjects in order of overall learning importance:
I've chosen 2 subjects from Science, Social Studies, English, Foreign Language, and Math.
Chemistry, Physics, US History, Economics/Personal Finance, American Literature, Writing, Foreign Language I, Foreign Language II, Algebra, and Geometry.
FYI. I'm especially excited to hear why Physics is more important for high school students to know and understand than Personal Economics.
Solid analysis. As the Dead Prez song goes, "School is like a 12 step brainwash camp." It's a horrifically oppressive institution.
"There’s an obvious alternative to later school start times: earlier bed times for teens."
Of course someone who never had trouble waking up early would say this. Teens have trouble waking up early more than younger or older people. *I* have trouble waking up early, or at any given time every day, more than 99.5% of everyone. I have tried for many years to adjust to a given time for waking up, and I can tell you that it's absolutely impossible for me. Many teens have exactly the same problem I do to a much lesser degree. Going to bed earlier is not an option. Laying in bed, awake, for an hour or more, doing nothing but trying to go to sleep, does not make you more rested in the mornings.
Over long periods, people can't change their natural sleep schedules more than about 30 minutes in either direction without huge disruptions, such as wildly varying amounts of sleep and being *extremely* sleepy when forced to wake up early. If you naturally go to bed at 12, it's simply not possible to go to bed at 10:30 every night without making huge adjustments in your life, and for many it's not possible full stop.
There's plenty you can do to mess up your own sleep, but there's a limit on what you can do to fix it.
This is more or less what I was getting ready to say. It seems to me that having your teens go to bed earlier would have the same effect. More, a later start tie for school would just encourage them to stay up even later. We'd just end up chasing them around the clock.
Which doesn't negate the point about schools as socializing for industrial society -- something increasingly irrelevant (see Florida on the Creative Class). It would be nice if we replaced schooling with learning, but th latter requires the participation of the person, while the former does not. Let's talk about how to realistically deal with that.
I seem to recall a couple of years ago Fairfax county parents and school board reviewed the issue, concluded the reports were right about teens, tried to find a way to let teens sleep later, and gave up because they couldn't figure out how to manage the bus schedule around other parental constraints.
It would be indeed be interesting to compare spending on SAT prep. to hiring more bus drivers.
This is probably why so much bullying goes on as well as blaming the victims of bullying -- teachers don't really care who beats the shit out of who as long as they don't have to deal with it.
Well played America, well played.
There's an obvious alternative to later school start times: earlier bed times for teens. The paper makes only fleeting references to this. It claims that hormones make it more difficult for adolescents to adjust to earlier bed times (not that it's impossible for them to go to bed earlier; just that it's a hard adjustment), and also that sports, work, family and social schedules (i.e., staying up till midnight texting your friends??) make it difficult for teens to get to bed early.
Well, it may be a lot more fun for teens to stay up late and show up to school later in the morning, but should we alter our school schedules for the chief purpose of accommodating teens' preferences?
My parents enforced a 10:30 bedtime for my siblings and I on school nights, and I often voluntarily awoke early so that I could play Tradewars on a BBS and not get yelled at for tying up the phone line (ahh, the days before the Internet was in every household). Maybe I was a freak (in more ways than my sleep habits, probably), but I never had trouble staying awake for my morning classes.
In "When Brute Force Fails" Mark Kleiman argues that holding off releasing kids from school before adults get back from work would significantly reduce the crime rate. He blames judging the school system only based on school performance (rather than broader social ramifications) and teachers who want less traffic for their commutes.
In the case of my school district, the superintendent claimed that the early start time was so that students who participated in sports and other extracurricular activities wouldn't have to leave school early to make it to events on time. Other people said that many students preferred the earlier start time because it gave them more time in the afternoon to work at a part-time job.
I find both responses rather unconvincing...
That's what it IS, not what it should be. It IS about the socializing.
Jess Riedel: I've never attended a school that met for 8 hours. They've all been 7 hours. And I've only ever been to one school that started at 9:00, and that was a middle school. One school I went to for fourth grade started at 8:30. Other than that, every school I've gone to started at 7:45 and ended at 2:45, even in Kindergarten. So, what on earth are you talking about?