I appreciate the logic of this blog post. That logic suggests: Fictional narratives should exist (or may need to be created) that sound the alarm about harms done by the currently dominant liberal (or non-conservative) cultural elites.
I'm trying to think of possible harms to be warned against. It isn't easy to come up with anything. So, trying hard, I've thought of these 3:
"Feminists told me I could be both a mother and have a career, but I waited too long and am childless..." (this disappointment has been documented and parodied)
"Non-white males from historically marginalized groups are valued for all the important, high status jobs; as a white male I can't get ahead, therefore, I succumb to depression and substance abuse..." (the documented 'deaths of despair' of middle-aged white males, reported in PNAS 12 years ago approx.)
"Liberal educators told me that emotional regulation, social skills, learning-how-to-learn and finding out what I loved doing should be my educational goals. I did that, but now I don't have the math, writing and science skills to get a job, so I'm 32 and still making working as a waiter."
It is hard to think of harms or curtailments to happiness that are a consequence of liberalism (or the ideology of liberal elits now in power). Does anyone have any ideas?
Regarding: "Any movies that do this must be pretty far out into the long tail of niche products." --> Do you know of any movies that do this (even if they are very obscure, niche...)?
Popular fiction is trend-following, not trend leading or anticipating. When the broad culture switches against the so-called current elite trends (or if the elites themselves change their minds as new people age into the group), popular fiction will start warning us against it, pretending to be "whoa so prophetic", when they're just recapping what (large numbers of) people already think.
Similarly, there's already fiction that warns against what Robin Hanson wants them to warn against, it's just not popular right now. There's a good chance that later on, people will dig one of them up, and proclaim that particular one as "ahead of its time", and ignoring the rest.
Well, I don't really believe that popular fiction is effective as early "warning". Credit for being so is given after the fact when (a substantial part of the) culture already believes the message of what is being warned against.
Accurate warnings don't make the best material for good fiction anyways -- they can easily become too one-note and boring or become screeds. And they often fall prey to a version of Poe's Law -- "fans" tend up treating the warning as glorification and an invitation to have more of the thing being warned against.
Think of the Dune -- warning against the role of Mesiah or glorification of the role? or the Matrix -- warning against virtual reality or its best marketing vehicle?
What Tyler is asking is really just wondering why particular cultural values (that he thinks are neglected) aren't already dominant, and thus why popular fiction isn't being written warning about neglecting those values? Paradoxically, I think we're on the cusp of a generational cultural change, and so what he wants is closer to happening now than he thinks. Cultural values he thinks are immutable or have inexorable trends are going to end up being switched overnight.
E.g. I suspect the cultural values of fertility and social conformity are on the rise over the next 20 years, and they'll get their fair share of promotion in various forms of popular fiction (over being childless & rebelliously individualistic). Of course, Tyler may still not be happy at that point, because the exact configuration/logic of why those values are then being promoted won't be to his tastes. Instead, they'll be tailored to the current younger generations, then in their middle ages+. But directionally it'll be quite different from the last 20 years, which are still dominated by the central Boomer values of life as an unbounded journey of individualistic self-expression (for themselves).
It's not that people will no longer like those things, but they'll see it as not always practical and it won't emphasized as sacred and defended against all tradeoffs. Sort of like how we see Victorian Ideals, nice but quaint.
More possible narratives: Communists commit mass murder and ruin the economy (there are some of these in the cold war, Dr. Zhivago comes to mind), bureaucrat prevents marketplace (for kidneys perhaps) leading to people dying or losing freedom(never seen any of the movies based on Ayn Rand books but they might fit), social justice warrior purges fellow employees for thought or speech crime.
Re: social justice warriors. I had thought of that example. Liberalism has allowed a focus on freedom from getting your feelings hurt, if you are a member of a historically oppressed group and your feelings are hurt by a member of the group that historically was the oppressor. This goes against the liberal value of equality. One view is that the oppression was so extreme that some decades of penance must be paid by members of the oppressor group.
> "Feminists told me I could be both a mother and have a career, but I waited too long and am childless..." (this disappointment has been documented and parodied)
Is it just me, or does it look like plenty of women, at least in the developed world, managed to have both children and a career just fine for decades, and then, in the last few years, we suddenly realized this can’t possibly work?
I appreciate where you are coming from, but I don't actually know what decades you are talking about "just fine for decades." Of the last 50 years that I witnessed, consider: it wasn't until the feminist movement in the 1970s (following the sexual revolution of the 1960s) that masses of women (not exceptional ones here or there) started trying to pursue careers; the 1990s was the heyday of "you can have it all"; the wake-up call (this can't work) started in the 00's.
I still think it’s sad, and an overly convenient obstacle when there’s a will to fail, especially now that technology should render physical differences less and less relevant over time. Of course, this can always be cancelled by a good old collapse of civilization.
I think media still warns against itself. Major villains in American Gods and Hazbin Hotel are supernatural personification of TV and other modern entertainment. In The Boys, the evil Vought has an entertainment division similiar to Disney+(and ironically also Amazon Prime) that does blatant propaganda.
Not sure about the Fight club - sure, in the end, the 'hero' looks bad, but that movie does not get its power and cultural impact from the end. But mainly from the disgust at modern, "liberal society".
The movie Demolition Man might have been intended to critique 90s social conservatives... but I think most modern people watching the movie would likely be struck by how it's future setting has striking parallels to the real world of America in 2024. And in recognizing those similarities, it definitely comes across as a critique of modern language-use norms and "safe space" concepts. In other words, Demolition Man now comes across as a critique of the non-conservative authorities of 2024.
If you've never watched Demolition Man, I would recommend checking it out.
I appreciate the logic of this blog post. That logic suggests: Fictional narratives should exist (or may need to be created) that sound the alarm about harms done by the currently dominant liberal (or non-conservative) cultural elites.
I'm trying to think of possible harms to be warned against. It isn't easy to come up with anything. So, trying hard, I've thought of these 3:
"Feminists told me I could be both a mother and have a career, but I waited too long and am childless..." (this disappointment has been documented and parodied)
"Non-white males from historically marginalized groups are valued for all the important, high status jobs; as a white male I can't get ahead, therefore, I succumb to depression and substance abuse..." (the documented 'deaths of despair' of middle-aged white males, reported in PNAS 12 years ago approx.)
"Liberal educators told me that emotional regulation, social skills, learning-how-to-learn and finding out what I loved doing should be my educational goals. I did that, but now I don't have the math, writing and science skills to get a job, so I'm 32 and still making working as a waiter."
It is hard to think of harms or curtailments to happiness that are a consequence of liberalism (or the ideology of liberal elits now in power). Does anyone have any ideas?
Regarding: "Any movies that do this must be pretty far out into the long tail of niche products." --> Do you know of any movies that do this (even if they are very obscure, niche...)?
https://quillette.com/2024/04/11/beware-cultural-drift/
Popular fiction is trend-following, not trend leading or anticipating. When the broad culture switches against the so-called current elite trends (or if the elites themselves change their minds as new people age into the group), popular fiction will start warning us against it, pretending to be "whoa so prophetic", when they're just recapping what (large numbers of) people already think.
Similarly, there's already fiction that warns against what Robin Hanson wants them to warn against, it's just not popular right now. There's a good chance that later on, people will dig one of them up, and proclaim that particular one as "ahead of its time", and ignoring the rest.
Makes sense, thanks. What are some of those works of fiction that are ahead of their time?
Well, I don't really believe that popular fiction is effective as early "warning". Credit for being so is given after the fact when (a substantial part of the) culture already believes the message of what is being warned against.
Accurate warnings don't make the best material for good fiction anyways -- they can easily become too one-note and boring or become screeds. And they often fall prey to a version of Poe's Law -- "fans" tend up treating the warning as glorification and an invitation to have more of the thing being warned against.
Think of the Dune -- warning against the role of Mesiah or glorification of the role? or the Matrix -- warning against virtual reality or its best marketing vehicle?
What Tyler is asking is really just wondering why particular cultural values (that he thinks are neglected) aren't already dominant, and thus why popular fiction isn't being written warning about neglecting those values? Paradoxically, I think we're on the cusp of a generational cultural change, and so what he wants is closer to happening now than he thinks. Cultural values he thinks are immutable or have inexorable trends are going to end up being switched overnight.
E.g. I suspect the cultural values of fertility and social conformity are on the rise over the next 20 years, and they'll get their fair share of promotion in various forms of popular fiction (over being childless & rebelliously individualistic). Of course, Tyler may still not be happy at that point, because the exact configuration/logic of why those values are then being promoted won't be to his tastes. Instead, they'll be tailored to the current younger generations, then in their middle ages+. But directionally it'll be quite different from the last 20 years, which are still dominated by the central Boomer values of life as an unbounded journey of individualistic self-expression (for themselves).
It's not that people will no longer like those things, but they'll see it as not always practical and it won't emphasized as sacred and defended against all tradeoffs. Sort of like how we see Victorian Ideals, nice but quaint.
More possible narratives: Communists commit mass murder and ruin the economy (there are some of these in the cold war, Dr. Zhivago comes to mind), bureaucrat prevents marketplace (for kidneys perhaps) leading to people dying or losing freedom(never seen any of the movies based on Ayn Rand books but they might fit), social justice warrior purges fellow employees for thought or speech crime.
Re: social justice warriors. I had thought of that example. Liberalism has allowed a focus on freedom from getting your feelings hurt, if you are a member of a historically oppressed group and your feelings are hurt by a member of the group that historically was the oppressor. This goes against the liberal value of equality. One view is that the oppression was so extreme that some decades of penance must be paid by members of the oppressor group.
I am going to start torturing cats for their historical treatment of mice. It was pretty extreme.
The climate craze, and emotional budgeting in general, come to mind.
> "Feminists told me I could be both a mother and have a career, but I waited too long and am childless..." (this disappointment has been documented and parodied)
Is it just me, or does it look like plenty of women, at least in the developed world, managed to have both children and a career just fine for decades, and then, in the last few years, we suddenly realized this can’t possibly work?
I appreciate where you are coming from, but I don't actually know what decades you are talking about "just fine for decades." Of the last 50 years that I witnessed, consider: it wasn't until the feminist movement in the 1970s (following the sexual revolution of the 1960s) that masses of women (not exceptional ones here or there) started trying to pursue careers; the 1990s was the heyday of "you can have it all"; the wake-up call (this can't work) started in the 00's.
I guess I’m too used to exceptional women then.
I still think it’s sad, and an overly convenient obstacle when there’s a will to fail, especially now that technology should render physical differences less and less relevant over time. Of course, this can always be cancelled by a good old collapse of civilization.
I think media still warns against itself. Major villains in American Gods and Hazbin Hotel are supernatural personification of TV and other modern entertainment. In The Boys, the evil Vought has an entertainment division similiar to Disney+(and ironically also Amazon Prime) that does blatant propaganda.
Not sure about the Fight club - sure, in the end, the 'hero' looks bad, but that movie does not get its power and cultural impact from the end. But mainly from the disgust at modern, "liberal society".
The movie Demolition Man might have been intended to critique 90s social conservatives... but I think most modern people watching the movie would likely be struck by how it's future setting has striking parallels to the real world of America in 2024. And in recognizing those similarities, it definitely comes across as a critique of modern language-use norms and "safe space" concepts. In other words, Demolition Man now comes across as a critique of the non-conservative authorities of 2024.
If you've never watched Demolition Man, I would recommend checking it out.
Please expand on this post
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