"Learning" jumps out at me as a strong selection bias - lots of Robin's followers have post-graduate degrees; such people tend to be very proud of them, and the culture tells them that being awarded such a degree is a big pride deal. (Sez the college dropout...)
Where are fairness, decency, honesty? I certainly respect a person much more if they are honest and treat others fairly, and lose respect for them if they do not.
Perhaps you imagine this to be covered by "honor/loyalty." But loyalty often stands opposed to honesty and fairness. A loyal mafioso or 1960s cigarette company executive is not fair, decent, or honest. Loyalty includes dishonestly protecting the ingroup from scrutiny when it has done wrong, and unfairly discriminating against outgroup members so that ingroup members can benefit.
> Loyalty includes dishonestly protecting the ingroup from scrutiny when it has done wrong, and unfairly discriminating against outgroup members so that ingroup members can benefit.
Both highly adaptive, ubiquitous traits that are highly valued in ingroups.
You're pointing to a tiny slice of characteristics (fairness, decency, honesty) that a tiny slice of humanity has even thought about, much less valorized, for a couple hundred years.
Versus honor / loyalty has been relevant for at least ~7M years of hominid evolution.
Diogenes sought an honest man in 4th century BC, and a sense of fairness is cross-cultural. Even chimps have been tested and shown to have a sense of fairness.
You see, it may be in the interest of a particular in-group for its members to lie and discriminate on its behalf. But it is also in the interest of every in-group for every *other* in-group not to do that. When a bunch of in-groups have to live together in a society where any one group is outnumbered by the combined others, it's in all of their interests to make and enforce rules against lying and discrimination.
Society as a whole functions better when people are honest and fair. This causes competent people to rise to positions of power, good ideas to spread without dishonest suppression by an existing hegemony, and misdeeds to be exposed and punished. Societies with more honesty and fairness have a power advantage over those with more corruption.
Sure, and wasn't Diogenes' search explicitly performative, with the intent to communicate how rare that honesty is?
> Society as a whole functions better when people are honest and fair.
100% agree - and yet, how many societies are high trust, low corruption societies where people are honest and fair? The vanishingly small minority? So unique and puzzling terms are coined (WEIRD), books are written (all of Henrich, Guns Germs and Steel, everything on Progress Studies or the Industrial Revolution, etc), and they're widely seen as the standout beacons the other ~7B people in the world wants to move to?
I'm definitely not saying honesty, fairness, and decency are BAD things, I'm just trying to point out they're not the norm and never have been, but the other dynamics you pointed out are the norm, and have been for longer than we've been human.
Diogenes' search wouldn't have been worth remarking on unless there was, in the 4th century BC Greece, a culture that expected and valued honesty. Diogenes was saying: "Here's this norm, that we all value, but you aren't living up to it enough!" Of course there isn't going to be perfect compliance with any norm, but the mere fact Diogenes was calling people out over that proves it was a norm in his time, as it is today.
I expect people would have more things to lie about the more complex society becomes, and that in simple tribal societies the truth is much more directly observable and everybody is known to everybody else, and therefore liars would be caught more easily. Certainly, a tribesman is not going to be telling lies about demographics and economic indicators and climate science and international policy. If he lies about how many wildebeest he killed, his friends are going to know, especially if he makes a habit of it. So I bet people were actually more honest when they lived in smaller communities.
Anyway, it doesn't matter if something was a norm in the past or not, all that matters is if it's good for society in the present. And honesty/fairness are.
Great work but how do you account for selection bias of your twitter followers
"Learning" jumps out at me as a strong selection bias - lots of Robin's followers have post-graduate degrees; such people tend to be very proud of them, and the culture tells them that being awarded such a degree is a big pride deal. (Sez the college dropout...)
Can't read header row on table.
Where are fairness, decency, honesty? I certainly respect a person much more if they are honest and treat others fairly, and lose respect for them if they do not.
Perhaps you imagine this to be covered by "honor/loyalty." But loyalty often stands opposed to honesty and fairness. A loyal mafioso or 1960s cigarette company executive is not fair, decent, or honest. Loyalty includes dishonestly protecting the ingroup from scrutiny when it has done wrong, and unfairly discriminating against outgroup members so that ingroup members can benefit.
> Loyalty includes dishonestly protecting the ingroup from scrutiny when it has done wrong, and unfairly discriminating against outgroup members so that ingroup members can benefit.
Both highly adaptive, ubiquitous traits that are highly valued in ingroups.
You're pointing to a tiny slice of characteristics (fairness, decency, honesty) that a tiny slice of humanity has even thought about, much less valorized, for a couple hundred years.
Versus honor / loyalty has been relevant for at least ~7M years of hominid evolution.
Diogenes sought an honest man in 4th century BC, and a sense of fairness is cross-cultural. Even chimps have been tested and shown to have a sense of fairness.
You see, it may be in the interest of a particular in-group for its members to lie and discriminate on its behalf. But it is also in the interest of every in-group for every *other* in-group not to do that. When a bunch of in-groups have to live together in a society where any one group is outnumbered by the combined others, it's in all of their interests to make and enforce rules against lying and discrimination.
Society as a whole functions better when people are honest and fair. This causes competent people to rise to positions of power, good ideas to spread without dishonest suppression by an existing hegemony, and misdeeds to be exposed and punished. Societies with more honesty and fairness have a power advantage over those with more corruption.
Sure, and wasn't Diogenes' search explicitly performative, with the intent to communicate how rare that honesty is?
> Society as a whole functions better when people are honest and fair.
100% agree - and yet, how many societies are high trust, low corruption societies where people are honest and fair? The vanishingly small minority? So unique and puzzling terms are coined (WEIRD), books are written (all of Henrich, Guns Germs and Steel, everything on Progress Studies or the Industrial Revolution, etc), and they're widely seen as the standout beacons the other ~7B people in the world wants to move to?
I'm definitely not saying honesty, fairness, and decency are BAD things, I'm just trying to point out they're not the norm and never have been, but the other dynamics you pointed out are the norm, and have been for longer than we've been human.
Diogenes' search wouldn't have been worth remarking on unless there was, in the 4th century BC Greece, a culture that expected and valued honesty. Diogenes was saying: "Here's this norm, that we all value, but you aren't living up to it enough!" Of course there isn't going to be perfect compliance with any norm, but the mere fact Diogenes was calling people out over that proves it was a norm in his time, as it is today.
I expect people would have more things to lie about the more complex society becomes, and that in simple tribal societies the truth is much more directly observable and everybody is known to everybody else, and therefore liars would be caught more easily. Certainly, a tribesman is not going to be telling lies about demographics and economic indicators and climate science and international policy. If he lies about how many wildebeest he killed, his friends are going to know, especially if he makes a habit of it. So I bet people were actually more honest when they lived in smaller communities.
Anyway, it doesn't matter if something was a norm in the past or not, all that matters is if it's good for society in the present. And honesty/fairness are.