I recently talked with a Christian college student who had just attended a wild party at another school, and who lamented that while folks there seemed to be having “fun” it wasn’t the “real joy” that she knew. I’ve heard similar feelings from folks who really like their favorite drug or sex style. I wonder, what fraction of folks feel smugly superior that favorite way of happiness/pleasure/joy/etc. is intrinsically superior to what most others have found? What evidence would it take for this to be a reasonable conclusion?
I think the reasons why people are afraid to experiment with 'new joys' are also the reasons they use to reinforce their old choices and not experiment with anything new in general.
I do believe identity plays a part when making up their minds. A person carefully cultivates their identity over a long period of time in response to their own personal experience and it becomes an anchor to who they are. When faced with new choices they convince themselves that "This isn't me". This is perhaps done out of fear that they would dislodge themselves from the comfort of their identity that they've come to accept as true.
But i feel that a mindset of "finding your own bliss" is more useful and rewarding. The joy that a person derives from any activity is subjective. If you truly enjoy something then do it, irregardless of what other people think
The idea that people fear "not being themselves anymore" seems to have the flaw that a majority didn't start defining themselves by their psycological traits until the modern era. (Curing multiple personality disorder, for example, was considered a given if possible)
It's not just that we worry about losing ourselves; I'd argue it's even more that we're worried what others will think when we abandon our previous pursuits to partake of new hobbies and ways of finding pleasure.
The way you receive pleasure from life is a key to your identity, so if you change that then you run the risk of appearing unbalanced or without foundation--like you're looking for yourself.
Most older people--especially when they're established--don't like appearing that way.
Your claim is only true of physical addiction (in the sense that there are withdrawal symptoms when the drug is discontinues), if at all.
I have spoken to a couple of people who have tried heroin once. They say that, having tried it, they never forget the feeling and must make a continuing conscious effort to avoid taking it again. It will be in the back of their mind for their whole life.
That might not be called "addiction", but I think it's a damn good reason to avoid those hard drugs completely.
In my experience, it’s vanishingly rare that someone is evangelizing a new drug, club, sexual activity or whatever out of a desire to make your life more joyful.I'm under the impression this is why I do it - how would I put that fond idea to the test?
All these comments about ego and addiction confuse me. It's pretty simple: I don't try things that people insist elicit great amounts of joy, pleasure, or satisfaction when I can assert that even if they did, I would still not want to partake. Marijuana is a great example; regular marijuana users are the happiest people I have ever known, and also the most ineffectual, the most prone to biases wildly divergent from reality, and the least likely to accomplish nothing in their life to bring mankind out of the darkness. They are walking, talking, living proof - to me, at least - that there's more to life than happiness.
It's all about social norms. Many of the acts at the "wild party" are probably not terribly enjoyable unto themselves. It's more the elation of breaking taboos or social norms being facilitated by alchohol or drug use. An outsider, who perhaps has convinced himself of the value of those social norms probably doesn't see the point in breaking them.
The alternate "joy" probably makes more references to intimate bonding with friends, family, and a mate. Wild parties aren't terribly conducive to building those sorts of relationship.
As a fairly clean conservative Catholic, I've often wondered what life on the other side was like. Even though I believed, It always sounded like the hedonists were having much more fun. But having a job which lets me see their lifestyle quite intimately, I've no doubts anymore. Not that I'm going to convince anyone.
A state of pure bliss is impossible on Earth, and while it may be captured momentarily with drugs it always seems to be balanced by an even lower "low". Honestly, the people who convinced me most about the "rightness" of Christianity was the behaviour of the heathens. Even when drowning in the joys of the brothel, they all seemed terribly alone.
RE: addiction and smugness. Though some would say that being smug is unwarranted or pointlessly self-congratulatory, there is asingle good reason to feel smug in many of these cases:the feeling of freedom. If you've voluntarily chosen to behave in away that leads you to addiction, knowing full well what the results are likelyto be (not everyone does, so smugness about their behavioris not included in this), and someone else hasn't, they can feel smugbecause they, unlike you, still have choices.
You've entered a cage that you cannot get out of (easily)and they haven't; perhaps they'd pity you, but it's hard to becauseyou entered of your own volition, knowing that the door wouldslam shut.
Maybe Tyler Cowen's post that Robin mentioned a few weeks ago is relevant? It's more important to be interesting than to be happy.
The alternative pleasures are generally and correctly regarded as time sinks. However much hedonic joy they bring, observation of others experiencing that joy shows them to be less interesting.
Perhaps you can argue that "being interesting" is part of your "identity" but I think that stretches both concepts a bit too much.
The amount of people who do not feel smugly superior in their choice of lifestyle is statistically insignificant.
More to the point of a religious person looking at a bunch of people partying like there's no tomorrow, that doesn't really fit in to the same category however.
It's not as if a Catholic is looking at a Buddhist, and vice versa, with them both feeling smug about their own lifestyles. That kind of partying is destructive, and unsustainable (as opposed to someone who casually partakes). Rational people see others engaged in such activities, and think smug thoughts at worst, thoughts of pity at best.
I think the reasons why people are afraid to experiment with 'new joys' are also the reasons they use to reinforce their old choices and not experiment with anything new in general.
I do believe identity plays a part when making up their minds. A person carefully cultivates their identity over a long period of time in response to their own personal experience and it becomes an anchor to who they are. When faced with new choices they convince themselves that "This isn't me". This is perhaps done out of fear that they would dislodge themselves from the comfort of their identity that they've come to accept as true.
But i feel that a mindset of "finding your own bliss" is more useful and rewarding. The joy that a person derives from any activity is subjective. If you truly enjoy something then do it, irregardless of what other people think
The idea that people fear "not being themselves anymore" seems to have the flaw that a majority didn't start defining themselves by their psycological traits until the modern era. (Curing multiple personality disorder, for example, was considered a given if possible)
Why is it logical? You haven't actually given a reason.
Sounds like a good point.
It's not just that we worry about losing ourselves; I'd argue it's even more that we're worried what others will think when we abandon our previous pursuits to partake of new hobbies and ways of finding pleasure.
The way you receive pleasure from life is a key to your identity, so if you change that then you run the risk of appearing unbalanced or without foundation--like you're looking for yourself.
Most older people--especially when they're established--don't like appearing that way.
Your claim is only true of physical addiction (in the sense that there are withdrawal symptoms when the drug is discontinues), if at all.
I have spoken to a couple of people who have tried heroin once. They say that, having tried it, they never forget the feeling and must make a continuing conscious effort to avoid taking it again. It will be in the back of their mind for their whole life.
That might not be called "addiction", but I think it's a damn good reason to avoid those hard drugs completely.
Well, I'm sure there are plenty of miserable, lonely Catholics, too. :)
I'm not sure this is true. A single exposure to nicotine causes permanent changes to rat brains.
In my experience, it’s vanishingly rare that someone is evangelizing a new drug, club, sexual activity or whatever out of a desire to make your life more joyful.I'm under the impression this is why I do it - how would I put that fond idea to the test?
derp least likely to accomplish ANYTHING. I should proof-read these things.
All these comments about ego and addiction confuse me. It's pretty simple: I don't try things that people insist elicit great amounts of joy, pleasure, or satisfaction when I can assert that even if they did, I would still not want to partake. Marijuana is a great example; regular marijuana users are the happiest people I have ever known, and also the most ineffectual, the most prone to biases wildly divergent from reality, and the least likely to accomplish nothing in their life to bring mankind out of the darkness. They are walking, talking, living proof - to me, at least - that there's more to life than happiness.
It's all about social norms. Many of the acts at the "wild party" are probably not terribly enjoyable unto themselves. It's more the elation of breaking taboos or social norms being facilitated by alchohol or drug use. An outsider, who perhaps has convinced himself of the value of those social norms probably doesn't see the point in breaking them.
The alternate "joy" probably makes more references to intimate bonding with friends, family, and a mate. Wild parties aren't terribly conducive to building those sorts of relationship.
As a fairly clean conservative Catholic, I've often wondered what life on the other side was like. Even though I believed, It always sounded like the hedonists were having much more fun. But having a job which lets me see their lifestyle quite intimately, I've no doubts anymore. Not that I'm going to convince anyone.
A state of pure bliss is impossible on Earth, and while it may be captured momentarily with drugs it always seems to be balanced by an even lower "low". Honestly, the people who convinced me most about the "rightness" of Christianity was the behaviour of the heathens. Even when drowning in the joys of the brothel, they all seemed terribly alone.
RE: addiction and smugness. Though some would say that being smug is unwarranted or pointlessly self-congratulatory, there is asingle good reason to feel smug in many of these cases:the feeling of freedom. If you've voluntarily chosen to behave in away that leads you to addiction, knowing full well what the results are likelyto be (not everyone does, so smugness about their behavioris not included in this), and someone else hasn't, they can feel smugbecause they, unlike you, still have choices.
You've entered a cage that you cannot get out of (easily)and they haven't; perhaps they'd pity you, but it's hard to becauseyou entered of your own volition, knowing that the door wouldslam shut.
Maybe Tyler Cowen's post that Robin mentioned a few weeks ago is relevant? It's more important to be interesting than to be happy.
The alternative pleasures are generally and correctly regarded as time sinks. However much hedonic joy they bring, observation of others experiencing that joy shows them to be less interesting.
Perhaps you can argue that "being interesting" is part of your "identity" but I think that stretches both concepts a bit too much.
The amount of people who do not feel smugly superior in their choice of lifestyle is statistically insignificant.
More to the point of a religious person looking at a bunch of people partying like there's no tomorrow, that doesn't really fit in to the same category however.
It's not as if a Catholic is looking at a Buddhist, and vice versa, with them both feeling smug about their own lifestyles. That kind of partying is destructive, and unsustainable (as opposed to someone who casually partakes). Rational people see others engaged in such activities, and think smug thoughts at worst, thoughts of pity at best.