My son took me to see a high school play recently, and I noticed that among the cast, the pretty/handsome/hot kids had the lead roles, and the cast was on average prettier than the supporting crew. I mentioned this to my wife, who was in drama club in high school, and she told me this was one of those things everyone knew – others would try out, but the prettiest kids were favored. The effect is strong, stronger than could be explained by a weak correlation between acting ability and prettiness.
Anna, surely the main purpose of high school drama is not to prepare people for careers as actors - the fraction of them who will become professional actors is far too low for that to many any sense. Surely the story is that drama is part of a good broad educational experience. But then why should pretty people be favored for that purpose?
My high school was in an affluent area and the students who got roles in the musicals and school plays, had all taken private acting and voice lessons for years. Nobody else had a chance at getting on stage. The drama teachers never took into account the fact that some people were more privileged than others.
So I put my kids in children's theater, which I pay for, so they can have a chance to perform in a stage production and urge them to avoid school performances. My daughter got a paid acting role recently.
Although the thread is old, I tought I will still post my views.
Math, Science are far more objective fields than Drama. In Drama rather than encouring real talent, teachers (especially middle and high school) give too much importance to marketing or prettiness (unjustified). Thats' where the Drama field is failing. If teachers are more logical or rational, I believe Drama will see better days, better talent and better audinece.I tell my kids, if you want better life stay with Science and Math and keep Drama , Signing as side dish/hobby. Getting job in Drama is so difficult and the baised producers make it more difficult.
Actually, on average pretty people will be better actors than ugly ones, because ugly people contain more people with ability-damaging geteic mutations, and people who have suffered ability-damaging stresses in untero and in early life.
It isn't just a 'halo' effect. A fully-meritocratic selection of actors would still contain a greater than random proportion of pretty ones.
The harsh fact is that good looking people really are, on average, better at things-in-general than ugly people (why is why we evolved to be attracted to good looks - 'good looks' is the look of vigorous, healthy, able people). And this does make it harder for the exceptions - ugly people who are really good at stuff.
While drama in school might be a a learning experience, school plays that are going to be presented to the students and parents are not utterly protected. Consistently fail to get the students and parents to see your productions, and you can probably watch the drama program wither away.
Which means that you have to market the program the traditional way.
(One could test this by examining whether non-public drama exercises suffer the same bias.)
As well, I think there's a very good chance that pretty "leads" also function to market drama to the participants themselves. I think there's a very good chance that even "ugly" participants feel more positive about a production led by "pretty" people (except for those directly cut out of the lead) because (1) the production will be more popular with the outside world, and (2) there's the halo effect of working around "pretty" people.
Also, to the extent perception of prettiness by audiences and/or casting directors is endogenous to perception of prettiness by the actor him/herself, which is further endogenous (again!) to perception of prettiness by others, there's something like a potential path-dependent vicious circle going on here.
That story sounds something like this: someone (by pure random chance, or as a function of non-inherent beauty markers like being able to afford high-quality clothing) tells KidA (s)he's pretty, so (s)he dresses better, works out more, stands with better posture, acts more confident, etc. etc., so (s)he's perceived as prettier by more people, who reinforce it still more, etc. etc., and before long we have the high school theatre stat. Another kid, equally physically attractive controlling for clothes posture etc., didn't have the benefit of the random praise and consequently doesn't make the attractive choices along those dimensions. Things start to look pretty arbitrary and unjust for that kind. And maybe that kid ought to be promoted to lead in the school play, just so (s)he can have the opportunity to have attractiveness reinforced too.
(If this sounds a lot like the "poor people and minorities are just as smart, but were held back by social factors" argument for affirmative action, well, good reading!)
Also, part of the experience of school drama is acting--maybe good actors who aren't especially pretty should get their chance at an audience. Another purpose is being part of a good-sized project while having other people depend on you. Again, this is as well-served by choosing the best actors as by choosing for looks.
Shouldn't a good broad educational experience be as close to reality as possible?In no way, shape or form. If closeness to reality is what we're aiming for, then why bother with education at all? Just shove the kids out into the labour market.
Education is about using tricks, and protected "unreal" situations to prepare the kids for the real world (and possibly to implant values). We need to be very clever about this - similarity to the real world is not automatically the optimum route to teach about the real world. So in this case, the issue is not "are biases in school drama close to those in industry" but "are the biases in school drama useful or detrimental for this preparation"?
The main advantage of choosing pretty leads is that it reveals to kids the pro-beauty bias in acting (and in most of society). The main drawback is that it boosts the confidence of those who will probably do well anyway, and dimishes the confidence of those who won't.
Now, from a anti-Biasing point of view, this seems beneficial - true information is imparted, and the cost is only in people's self-image. But the information imparted is utterly trivial, and will be learnt quickly out in the world anyway, while the self-image cost is difficult to reverse. So I think that on balance, over-promoting pretty leads is a bad idea.
Anna, I don't see why a drama class should give students a realistic experience of being a professional actor, any more than a writing class should give a realistic experience of being a professional writer. Shall we have grades on writing assignments depend on whether your parents are famous enough to get people to buy your book?
I am not saying say that high school drama is to prepare people for careers as actors although it may introduce students to the art of performance which may in turn lead children to be inspired to become actors. Unfortunately, in the industry, the reality is that pretty, handsome, charming, etc., people are considered to have an advantage as it is easier to market them. A good drama teacher would know this. I'm not saying it's right but that's the way it is. Shouldn't a good broad educational experience be as close to reality as possible?
It's not that the halo of prettiness leads drama teachers to see better acting ability where none might be. Rather, audiences see a quality play as part of the halo of pretty actors. If drama teachers want parents to think their plays are good, then, on average, we would expect to see the prettiest kids in lead roles.
Someone can be a good mathematician/engineer even if they don't work things through very quickly.
Um, well, no, they actually can't. In spite of the rigorous grounding in reality (for engineering) or Platonic uber-reality (for mathematics), both engineering and mathematics have at least a smidgen of social grounding to them. A slow person otherwise capable of being a good mathematician or engineer would quickly find themselves sidelined as mentors/peers/competitors/clients ignored them or swiped their ideas. Slowness is far too high a handicap to overcome, if one is merely good.
It's theoretically possible that one could be a great mathematician without the ability to work things through quickly, but I don't believe any such have ever existed (the internet may enable such a one to manifest). Slow but great engineers are probably impossible. Engineering implies clients, who can buy fast and great for not much more than slow but great, at considerably less risk.
Most drama teachers have been in the industry for some time therefore they understand how the world works within that frame. I have been producing professional shows for more than 5 years. I have no choice but to be bias. I have auditioned many talented and gifted individuals but had to refuse them due to the fact that they where not marketable. It is better to teach children realistically how the industry works or simply give false hope to children that are not pretty/hot/handsome/charming etc.? I can't imagine a math professor telling a student that he/she will be a brilliant mathematician when the student has a D-average. I teach ballet and just the other day a 14 year old asked me if I thoughtshe could be a prima ballerina. I honestly was stumped for an answer and changed the subject. Although she is a great dancer, she weighs 170 pounds and realistically it probably will never happen. Should I have been honest and said so and risk destroying the child's dream? It's not right but i think that's what your wife meant by saying that in the industry, that's just the way it is.
Anna, surely the main purpose of high school drama is not to prepare people for careers as actors - the fraction of them who will become professional actors is far too low for that to many any sense. Surely the story is that drama is part of a good broad educational experience. But then why should pretty people be favored for that purpose?
My high school was in an affluent area and the students who got roles in the musicals and school plays, had all taken private acting and voice lessons for years. Nobody else had a chance at getting on stage. The drama teachers never took into account the fact that some people were more privileged than others.
So I put my kids in children's theater, which I pay for, so they can have a chance to perform in a stage production and urge them to avoid school performances. My daughter got a paid acting role recently.
Although the thread is old, I tought I will still post my views.
Math, Science are far more objective fields than Drama. In Drama rather than encouring real talent, teachers (especially middle and high school) give too much importance to marketing or prettiness (unjustified). Thats' where the Drama field is failing. If teachers are more logical or rational, I believe Drama will see better days, better talent and better audinece.I tell my kids, if you want better life stay with Science and Math and keep Drama , Signing as side dish/hobby. Getting job in Drama is so difficult and the baised producers make it more difficult.
Bruce, in my post I acknowledged there may be the effect you describe, but claimed it was not plausibly strong enough to account for the effect I see.
Actually, on average pretty people will be better actors than ugly ones, because ugly people contain more people with ability-damaging geteic mutations, and people who have suffered ability-damaging stresses in untero and in early life.
It isn't just a 'halo' effect. A fully-meritocratic selection of actors would still contain a greater than random proportion of pretty ones.
The harsh fact is that good looking people really are, on average, better at things-in-general than ugly people (why is why we evolved to be attracted to good looks - 'good looks' is the look of vigorous, healthy, able people). And this does make it harder for the exceptions - ugly people who are really good at stuff.
Dave: Neils Bohr was a famously slow "Great Physicist". Einstein wasn't particularly fast either, nor, I believe, is Hawking.
While drama in school might be a a learning experience, school plays that are going to be presented to the students and parents are not utterly protected. Consistently fail to get the students and parents to see your productions, and you can probably watch the drama program wither away.
Which means that you have to market the program the traditional way.
(One could test this by examining whether non-public drama exercises suffer the same bias.)
As well, I think there's a very good chance that pretty "leads" also function to market drama to the participants themselves. I think there's a very good chance that even "ugly" participants feel more positive about a production led by "pretty" people (except for those directly cut out of the lead) because (1) the production will be more popular with the outside world, and (2) there's the halo effect of working around "pretty" people.
Drama is an aesthetic experience. Looks are a part of the deal.
Also, to the extent perception of prettiness by audiences and/or casting directors is endogenous to perception of prettiness by the actor him/herself, which is further endogenous (again!) to perception of prettiness by others, there's something like a potential path-dependent vicious circle going on here.
That story sounds something like this: someone (by pure random chance, or as a function of non-inherent beauty markers like being able to afford high-quality clothing) tells KidA (s)he's pretty, so (s)he dresses better, works out more, stands with better posture, acts more confident, etc. etc., so (s)he's perceived as prettier by more people, who reinforce it still more, etc. etc., and before long we have the high school theatre stat. Another kid, equally physically attractive controlling for clothes posture etc., didn't have the benefit of the random praise and consequently doesn't make the attractive choices along those dimensions. Things start to look pretty arbitrary and unjust for that kind. And maybe that kid ought to be promoted to lead in the school play, just so (s)he can have the opportunity to have attractiveness reinforced too.
(If this sounds a lot like the "poor people and minorities are just as smart, but were held back by social factors" argument for affirmative action, well, good reading!)
Also, part of the experience of school drama is acting--maybe good actors who aren't especially pretty should get their chance at an audience. Another purpose is being part of a good-sized project while having other people depend on you. Again, this is as well-served by choosing the best actors as by choosing for looks.
Shouldn't a good broad educational experience be as close to reality as possible?In no way, shape or form. If closeness to reality is what we're aiming for, then why bother with education at all? Just shove the kids out into the labour market.
Education is about using tricks, and protected "unreal" situations to prepare the kids for the real world (and possibly to implant values). We need to be very clever about this - similarity to the real world is not automatically the optimum route to teach about the real world. So in this case, the issue is not "are biases in school drama close to those in industry" but "are the biases in school drama useful or detrimental for this preparation"?
The main advantage of choosing pretty leads is that it reveals to kids the pro-beauty bias in acting (and in most of society). The main drawback is that it boosts the confidence of those who will probably do well anyway, and dimishes the confidence of those who won't.
Now, from a anti-Biasing point of view, this seems beneficial - true information is imparted, and the cost is only in people's self-image. But the information imparted is utterly trivial, and will be learnt quickly out in the world anyway, while the self-image cost is difficult to reverse. So I think that on balance, over-promoting pretty leads is a bad idea.
Anna, I don't see why a drama class should give students a realistic experience of being a professional actor, any more than a writing class should give a realistic experience of being a professional writer. Shall we have grades on writing assignments depend on whether your parents are famous enough to get people to buy your book?
Keith, interesting suggestion.
I am not saying say that high school drama is to prepare people for careers as actors although it may introduce students to the art of performance which may in turn lead children to be inspired to become actors. Unfortunately, in the industry, the reality is that pretty, handsome, charming, etc., people are considered to have an advantage as it is easier to market them. A good drama teacher would know this. I'm not saying it's right but that's the way it is. Shouldn't a good broad educational experience be as close to reality as possible?
It's not that the halo of prettiness leads drama teachers to see better acting ability where none might be. Rather, audiences see a quality play as part of the halo of pretty actors. If drama teachers want parents to think their plays are good, then, on average, we would expect to see the prettiest kids in lead roles.
Someone can be a good mathematician/engineer even if they don't work things through very quickly.
Um, well, no, they actually can't. In spite of the rigorous grounding in reality (for engineering) or Platonic uber-reality (for mathematics), both engineering and mathematics have at least a smidgen of social grounding to them. A slow person otherwise capable of being a good mathematician or engineer would quickly find themselves sidelined as mentors/peers/competitors/clients ignored them or swiped their ideas. Slowness is far too high a handicap to overcome, if one is merely good.
It's theoretically possible that one could be a great mathematician without the ability to work things through quickly, but I don't believe any such have ever existed (the internet may enable such a one to manifest). Slow but great engineers are probably impossible. Engineering implies clients, who can buy fast and great for not much more than slow but great, at considerably less risk.
Most drama teachers have been in the industry for some time therefore they understand how the world works within that frame. I have been producing professional shows for more than 5 years. I have no choice but to be bias. I have auditioned many talented and gifted individuals but had to refuse them due to the fact that they where not marketable. It is better to teach children realistically how the industry works or simply give false hope to children that are not pretty/hot/handsome/charming etc.? I can't imagine a math professor telling a student that he/she will be a brilliant mathematician when the student has a D-average. I teach ballet and just the other day a 14 year old asked me if I thoughtshe could be a prima ballerina. I honestly was stumped for an answer and changed the subject. Although she is a great dancer, she weighs 170 pounds and realistically it probably will never happen. Should I have been honest and said so and risk destroying the child's dream? It's not right but i think that's what your wife meant by saying that in the industry, that's just the way it is.