Discussion about this post

User's avatar
James M.'s avatar

Fortunately ‘liberal’ as a common label seems to have been replaced by ‘progressive’ (a viewpoint which is decidedly illiberal). But on the left, ‘liberal’ (and ‘democratic’) now effectively mean: anything promoting the growth and interests of the administrative state. If elections must be cancelled to achieve this, then cancelling them is democratic. If millions of poor, nonwhite students must be consigned to dangerous and dysfunctional public schools to achieve this, then that is liberal. If state and media collaborate to monitor and punish dissent in order to achieve this then THAT is liberal.

It’s almost as much of a mess as the label ‘conservative’ under Trump. But not quite…

https://jmpolemic.substack.com/p/leviathan

Mike Lane's avatar

What kind of "sacred goal" would your civilization be based on? The maximization of economic growth or profit? Creating widgets? Building pyramids for the pharaohs? It seems to me that any civilization based on pursuing some kind of sacred cow like that is doomed to failure. We've tried spreading Christianity, Islam, democracy and communism as goals to motivate individuals to participate in maintenance of empires in past. That hasn't stopped the decline of empires in the past, and it won't in the future. That's because a not insubstantial proportion of the population are intelligent enough to realize that at the outset that such "goals" are meaningless or because they learn through direct participation that those goals are meaningless for themselves and the ones they care about.

You state here in a potentially extreme example of what a liberal state might do to better the conditions of SOME of it's people:

"But are we allowed to kill people, or prevent them from existing, to achieve this?"

If your goals are "sacred" wouldn't that almost automatically justify killing (sacrificing) people if it was believed necessary to attain that goal? It was certainly "necessary" in the past for some sacred goals.

You go on to suggest that:

"Others say “liberal” means “rights are preserved”. This suggests minimizing a weighted rate of rights violations, with different kinds of violations getting different weights. But the obvious way to max this is to have zero people doing nothing. "

Why would the preservation of rights suggest that different rights or violations of rights be weighted differently? I agree this shouldn't be. But I would take issue I suspect with your consideration as to how the weighting occurs. In most Western cultures you need money to afford legal representation to protect your rights. Most people in this country can't afford decent legal representation, certainly if they are opposed by the government or more importantly corporate entities. The last sentence in your paragraph is likely an attempt at absurdist humor.

As for "easy exit" so let's say I live in Chicago and I really hate the job I have because my boss is a complete jerk so I decide to find another job in Piscataway, New York. But under your system maybe I don't have enough in the way of personal assets to sell off in order to "pay off my debt to the local governance unit" and because my boss is this complete jerk he decides he wants to also lower my social reputation, so he sends a letter to whatever local tax authority measures all of your individual metrics.

Now I have a choice. I can make the move to Piscataway but I will have to indenture a portion of my salary to Chicago to pay off my social debt to the city. (Your instituted form of slavery) or I could just stay in Chicago and work with the boss who now knows I hate his friggin' guts.

Great system you're thinking up there...for someone not sure who.

25 more comments...

No posts

Ready for more?