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mc's avatar

The "democratic" in "democratic socialism" refers to the idea that a majority of people in a society should have the power to determine the rules of that society. Such rules are unlikely to be preferred by everyone, but are typically considered "good" by a majority, and "fair" by nearly everyone.

A democratic process would be well served by considering if a cash gift plan would be a better alternative to centrally controlled spending on something.

Things like "free college tuition, cut student loan rates, universal childcare, loans to turn firms into cooperatives, banking at post offices" won't benefit everyone. Childcare doesn't do much for people without children and who aren't employers, the cost of college isn't so impactful on people who don't want to go, people who live near a bank branch may not benefit much from a post office offering banking services.

But many people have children or want to employ people who would otherwise be at home looking after children. Many people want to go to college, and if the same terms are offered for trade school study, the proportion increases. Also, the state funding of college places increases the number of professionals, which makes hiring them cheaper for everyone (as does trade school funding for tradespeople). As for bank branches - more and more keep closing, and the areas where small businesses and the elderly would benefit from more face-to-face bank access increase. (This said, "post office banking" means "state banking" to many people, with the idea that rates would be better if the government offered retail banking instead of just wholesaling money to commercial and not-for-profit banks). The cooperative establishment loans are probably the most niche option here - I suspect few would apply (at least until Mondragon and similar bodies become better known).

Similarly, "$15 minimum wage, limit for-profit schools, new financial regulations, 12 weeks paid leave to workers with new kids" won't benefit everyone either. That said, there's probably a lot of low-paid people that would benefit from the minimum wage; and the many people with kids would likely benefit from the paid leave. Both are literally "taking the cash". "New financial regulations" could mean just about anything, including more libertarian options. "Limiting for-profit schools" is probably the most niche option in this list, particularly given that most private schools are non-profit.

Government monopsonies can provide much good to many people. This has been shown in many countries in healthcare.

Of course in a democracy, all these things can be considered by the citizens, and they decide what they think it would be good for the government to be involved in, and what they should leave to other forces.

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Michael Bohn's avatar

Democratic socialism was first defined by Eduard Bernstein. A serious debate about Democratic socialism should start with a critic of Bernstein.https://en.wikipedia.org/wi...

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Tim Tyler's avatar

Please consider an example:

Consider winter heating in the North. This makes people warmer and happier. The government could subsidise heating oil - giving those people have more heating and more happiness. Individual benefit - no positive externalities. Northern voters will likely vote for government subsidies of heating oil. Taxpayers in the South might vote against it.

Why did the people in the North not just buy more of the unsubsidized heating oil in the first place? Resource limitation can easily explain that.

In this example, the only associated externalities are negative (in the form of taxes), but the government can reasonably be expected to subsidise - assuming that the northern voters care enough and are sufficiently numerous, etc. The subsidies could easily be a force for good overall.

Subsidies and taxes can be used to compensate for externalities, but I would deny that that is their only possible function. Subsidies can promote desirable ends by making them more attainable. This is in fact the standard reason given for fossil fuel subsidies: they promote industry, production and growth.

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Equality7-2521's avatar

Chairman Mao didn't have to hide the fact that he was doing very well materially. Any time someone tries do unlink "democratic socialism" from the soviet union, N Korea, Maoist China you know that they're trying to sell you a bill of goods (which has usually been taken at gunpoint from the workers who created them).

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Overcoming Bias Commenter's avatar

Because the assumption is that the consumer (and the producer) takes into account the good and bad affecting himself but not those affecting third parties. Taxing/subsidizing externalities internalizes them.

This is completely standard economics. Nothing puzzling about it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wi...

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lebonid's avatar

You should review David Schweikart's books. I've heard they influenced the more economic-y side of Sunkara's Manifesto.

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Jack STENNETT's avatar

Whenever you make a case for/ consider the benefits of democratic socialism, and someone brings up NK /USSR/ Maoist China, you know they're not seriously addressing your points. Whether you find it accurate or not, when left-leaning Americans or Brits talk about democratic socialism, they're almost always referring to a Nordic model (vibrant market economy with high taxes and a large state sector). However, it's also generally true that if conspicuous consumption is taboo, as it was in Maoist China, there is less material one-upmanship; quite the opposite, you'd often have to hide the fact that you were eating/ living better than others.

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Equality7-2521's avatar

Do you honestly believe that there was no social one-upmanship in Soviet Russia, Post-Mao China, North Korea? The only thing that changed was that under Capitalism, one's ability to generate a good or service for VOLUNTARY TRADE is rewarded, as opposed to one's ability to barter for influence to socialist overlords.

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Jack Yinglei's avatar

I think so, yes; I get the impression that the whole package creates a culture of mutual support, rather than one overconcerned with profit and status. But I don't have any good evidence of causality.

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RobinHanson's avatar

If you'd rather have the cash in each case, but prefer the whole package to cash, I guess you see synergies in having the whole package of no-having-to-worry?

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Jack STENNETT's avatar

I read this guy's (Nathan Robinson) posts on intelligence... It was the most annoying example of woke motivated reasoning I've seen in a long time and I've strongly disliked the guy ever since. Having said that, anyone who's spent time in the US vs. Denmark can see the appeal of a dem-soc system. As many European visitors to the US will tell you (the long-termers move permanently because they prefer it), there is just something unpleasant about pervasive US capitalism, even to the well-off. From a Hansonian perspective, living in dem-soc European countries you're saved a lot of the worries resulting from status signalling and keeping up with the Joneses. In fact, I read much of 'The Elephant in the Brain' thinking: "We don't really have x signalling issue here (esp. medical care/ education)." Also, almost anything involving public goods is just way easier and more pleasant in dem-soc Europe. With the 'cash-gift' test, I'd usually rather have the cash in a given circumstance, but there are advantages to living in societies full of these pleasant inefficiencies.

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MikeRulle's avatar

Thanks!! I am a Star Trek fan----but it is a massive paradox----I don't believe the interstellar space travel----certainly not by 2250--:-). Also, the morality is loaded with contradictions---and the implied economics as written by Robin is funny. By the way--I believe Marcuse kind of was a Trekonomic kind of guy---he was Marx with tech fantasy!

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TGGP's avatar

Hanson has directly discussed the economics of Star Trek here:https://www.overcomingbias....

And delved more deeply into the problems with implicitly relying on merely prestige for everyone's motivation in Star Trek here:https://www.overcomingbias....

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Jose Pablo's avatar

How many times have you gone to a library? How many times do you think the "average American" (or the "average citizen of the world") has gone to a library? The "library reference" is just a pedantic argument coming from the "gauche divine" and it exemplified pretty well the tendency of pedantic central planners to expend others people's money on their dreams of an aesthetically idealized world that does not make any sense to the suckers paying for it.

People avoid the European "free clinics" Robinson refers to, because the service is awful. If they can afford it, they very much prefer to go to the private ones.

Robinson believes their "preferences" are "universal preferences" which gives him the right to force other people to finance his stylized view of the world. They are not, and this is a fatal mistake. Finance your preference with your own money, buddy!

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RobinHanson's avatar

Sure a coordination failure could be the market failure that justifies spending. But if so, such spending won't fail my cash gift test.

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Tim Tyler's avatar

This "cash gift" argument does not seem very specific to socialism. It cuts against many government-provided services. Cash could be spent on health care, schools, roads, post, police or garbage collection. Part of the reply would be that "free riders" would not pay for some services - such as roads and police, due to a "tragedy of the commons" situation. In practice, the government forces everyone to pay something, and then the "tragedy of the commons" situation is avoided.

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