“Oh, my God! You’re actually getting married in a few hours! I mean, everything’s gonna be all different. Carla, you never have to have sex again except for when you actually want to.” Elliot from Scrubs
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You forgot to mention that the surveys were mailed to married couples/I can see it nowHey honey, check out this survey.Fill this out Ok as he looks at her wondering "she is going to read this MF"k babe I'm done.Babe what did you put for number 2?
what drugs are you on?
Our marriage is lousy ! We only had sex once in 45 years and that was our wedding night. Husband thought it was terrible, no excitment or pleasure, to much work for so little, digusting and messy. From that night 45 years ago, he distanced hinself from me. Went to work on the midnight shift took no vacation, then moved all his stuff down to the basement . We only slept together once and that was only a couple of hours. He hasn't spoke to me in months! you might think hes gay but hes not he goes no where. I've had him followed many times over the years but nothing. Now hes retired, dresses like homeless man and looks the part. I've only stayed for the money and medical benefits. Its been stupid of me to stay with this creep, I guess I have been scared to be out on my own.
Are you crazy or what? If a wife enters into a marraige with great drive, and then as soon as vows are said drops it down to less than 1 a month, then IT IS HER PROBLEM TOO. If she wants to remain married the woman needs to figure her shit out and start working on it. This whole ideat hat men need to make themselves attractive enough to their wives hinges on a very broken idea that it is the wife who should controll the bedroom. I am not saying forcefully take it by any means, but a wife that drops off on her commitment to her husband (entering into a manogomous relationship is a commitment, and a promise for lack of a better term that you will not force this person to do without that which you are now requiring them to only get from you). Bottom line, my wife thinks things are great right now, they aren't and I am in the process of just leaving emotionally before I take off all together. Let's put it this way, sex is NEVER a bargaining chip, and is SHOULD NEVER be transactional between mutually respectful partners. Unless your end goal is ending the relationship.
You can go right back to where you came from with your hoop jumping b.s., attitudes like yours are the problem in the first place. If she respected him at all, or took the 2 seconds to look inside herself that most woman explicitly expect from their men, then maybe she would see what B.S. that is. If your not attracted say it, don't just hold out and wonder why your husband is a pissy bastard.
*steps down from soap box*
Well this whole thing would have seemed unfathomable to me a few years ago. I am a married male 50ish and my wife is 40ish we have 4 kids of which one is still in school. When the kids were young, sex was like Friday Saturday and Sunday nights then Weekdays in the mornings a few times too. We even did it at her workplaces when I would visit for lunch and no one was around (no security cameras back then!). Then about 5 years ago it stated to slow down to like once a week then maybe 3 times a month about two years ago. Not much changed other that we were getting older but the sex was just as great as ever when it happened. Then out of the blue no matter what I did the answer was always NO. Then it became: “I’m NOT interested in you.” Where the heck did that come from? She won’t talk about it other than to say I need to lose weight. Sure I gained weight over the years but so has she and I don’t see that as the real problem. I tried everything you could think of to please her all to no avail. (yeah I lost some weight but it was not good enough!) Now mind you over these years together I never cheated on her nor looked at other women, I don’t drink nor smoke nor do I do drugs and am disease free and she is the same. We both have great jobs and plenty of income so money is not much of an issue. So her demand that I lose weight is kind of a death sentence to me if not to my sex life with her. It took me over 50 years to get here and I will be dead before I lose the weight she says I have to lose before I can get back in bed with her! I still can’t believe this attitude after all this time! We have been through some trying times in the past and I was always there for her, but sex was never an issue – she likes it as much as I do. I must have done or said something but I can’t figure it out. She seems happy to keep the situation as it is and it has been going on for close to two years now. One exception was last year just before the holidays out of the blue she jumped in the bed and let me have my way with her for hours and I thought all was forgiven, but I was wrong and stupid! It was a one shot deal. We had lots of family coming to visit for a few weeks and I now see she did that to shut me up so I would not mention our troubles to my parents or her parents which I was planning to do to ask for advice. After the sex we were both upbeat and happy but as soon as everyone was gone and the “Coast was clear” I was told nothing was changed and she was “still not interested.” Turns out after talking to my dad this is all too common in marriage. Then he tells me stories about him and others. Turns out my dad cheated on my mother when she got heavy into religion. Later in life she forgave him and they got back together but not after a tumultuous time in their marriage of which I did know sort of what was going on but not why. Turns out my granddad had a mistress that lived in his house with his wife! My uncle was all over the place with other women and we saw it all the time. Then I find out about my wife’s parents had their share of the same sort of stuff! What is wrong with women! (It is not a question!) I mean we marry you and love you and adore you. You are not a sex object. But we are sexual beings and as such I want to know you as my opposite. Sure if you are sick or not up to it I have feelings too and never want to pressure you nor you me. Sex should be like eating or breathing or laughing, it should be fun and enjoyable and bonding. Now I feel distant, I feel I not can kiss you or touch you or say “I love you.” You have turned sex into something I never wanted – it is some sort of bargaining chip or weapon. I am having bad thoughts about you and thinking of divorce in spite of all we have or had just because you are not interested! I’m not too old that I cannot masturbate to take care of those urges but why should I being doing that or why should you be doing that? I want to go to therapy but you say it is not your problem. What a shame – She may have a job we may have some money but what got us here is us not her not me but us! If I walk out she will lose as much as me if not more. I can live in a cardboard box if I had too. I do not think she is that resilient. What it comes down to is sex in marriage cannot be taken for granted but should always be appreciated for what it is. Sex is as old as time itself and is just as natural. What is unnatural is that we sign a marriage contract that makes me financially responsible for you and you for me and we base it on sexual fidelity which works great as long as both sides have give and take within reason. If I am such a slob please at least divorce me so I can move on. I can really understand why men have mistresses I'm just not sure why women would want that but apparently they do. Very mixed up male in a sad relationship. I hope it gets better and that by next year we can laugh about it as life is really too short to be wasting time just living when we should really be loving.
Well consider from an evolutionary perspective what the pair bonded man's risks and rewards are.
Likely he has enough sex with his s.o. for the marginal increase in genetic survival of more sex to be fairly minor. What is not minor is the risk of his s.o. cheating and getting impregnated by another man.
Bargaining does nothing to reduce the likelihood of the evolutionarily significant risk (it's already a deceptive breach of trust) but keeping your woman sexually gratified and attracted to you does reduce this risk. Thus we should expect men to care about the later while being less interested in achieving sex through explicit trades.
I think there are others pressures that discourage this as well. For one there is the signaling problem that by conditioning some grant of resources/effort on sexual activity one indicates less of an irrational commitment to support the other even when it's not in your interest.
Whoah - How did the conversation get so far without discussion of the major economic sexual disincentive for women, i.e. unwanted pregnancy?
There are over one million abortions in the U.S. every year. The most reliable contraception (sterilization, the pill) are expensive and require attention, and can have severe side-effects. Unplanned pregnancy can take a physical and emotional toll on women.
Men don't have to deal with it if they don't want to. If the woman choses an abortion, she picks up the tab. If a baby is born, the woman can spend years trying to collect child support. Even women who are in a stable, committed monogamous marriage can have strong disincentives to have children (or more children).
Until every woman of child-bearing age has access to reliable, healthy contraception, you're going to have a lot of women who are ambivalent about sex.
Oh wow...It is entertaining to read what motivates women's actions from a male perspective. But as a women maybe I can bring her thought process closer to the xy. She is not playing a game, women do want sex (if a man is at least an adequate lover) but only if they feel loved, respected and relaxed, otherwise, sex is not a pleasure. To put it bluntly, for a women to have sex when stressed and unhappy with the marriage is an equivalent to a man having sex while watching photos of his mother in a bathing suite. So more housework done by husband=more sex (and there are studies that prove it)
> Also, I would suggest that sleeping with a few 20-something year olds (versus a middle aged spouse) is well worth trying out a few times. . .
Easier said than done.
But I think my reaction mainly stems from the fact that explicitly stating the transactional nature of relationships is bad for the relationships themselves. Love and intimacy are usually represented as a black box processes: showing how they work disqualifies them from being real.
Based on this comment, you seem to be what I call "feeling person" as opposed to "thinking person", who mostly populate this site. By this I do not mean to imply that you do not think, but that you have learned to process information in the world primarily through your feeling function rather than your thinking function. In my opinion this does not make you in any way inferior, although many people here do not necessarily always see the value of feeling people.
Women are more often feeling people, and most feeling people seem to be women. This does not mean are women are feeling people, nor that all feeling people are women.
In relationships, opposites seem to attract, and often thinking people seem to end up with feeling people, regardless of which sex has which role.
There is very fundamental communication problem between thinking and feeling people, and your comment catches one part of it quite well. For feeling people, relationship is primarily a feeling. If the relationship feels good, they are strongly in relationship. If it feels bad, they are not so much in relationship, and are more willing to cheat, for example. Really analyzing the relationship does not feel good, so it is actually detrimental to relationship.
For thinking person, relationship is mostly a contract. When contract is made, it is valid until either one breaches the contract, or it is mutually ended. According to this view, any problem in the relationship is an obstacle that can and should be overcome by analyzing it.
This fundamental disconnect between two ways of thinking about relationships explains many things.
Many writers seem to assume that female sexuality towards their partner is always higher than towards other people, i.e. women do not value sexual variety. It does not seem to hold for men, why do we believe so for women? It is possible that women withhold sex from their partner and still feel there is not enough sex in their life. This woman makes an excellent case that this is indeed the case.
People would do *much* better in these conversations to keep in mind the full range of human personality types and how they affect sexual desire. There are asexuals, aromantics, people who do/don't experience limerance. All these distinctions (and probably many more) are very important to this conversation.
Yes, clearly we like our wives to be sexually attracted to us, and this is one reason to work on sexual attractiveness directly. But perhaps some people rely on sexual attraction more than they otherwise would, because bargaining is too difficult and unreliable. The former prevalence of sex as an expected duty (a norm which benefited those who cared about sexual contact, not their own attractiveness) would seem to argue for this view.
This can't be solved by any kind of remotely explicit bargaining since for the most part what the man wants is for his wife to WANT to have sex with him..
Indeed, as evolutionary reasons suggest is plausible, it seems what men in relationships tend to really want is (LARGELY) to believe their mate is still highly emotionally and sexually attached to them and to believe they are doing a good job sexually satisfying her. I suspect that most guys would much prefer a situation where their wife is so overwhelmed by sexual attraction to them she demands immediate, repeated and thourgh sexual gratification at a relatively low fequency than have 10x the amount of sex but in ways which signaled their wife could take it or leave it.
So any improvement will either require drugs or if we have to leave humans unaltered, some means of convincing men their partners are more sexually excited/gratified by them than. Ideally by actually increasing how much the women enjoyed the sex. Arguably one possible direction to explore is to reduce the level of long term monogomous cocmmitment expected by society, e.g., less long term monogomous marriages and more serial monogomy. Unfortunately, this is all tied up with other benefits we recieve from intimacy and a decreased perception of long term commitment would be a significant harm for many people.
Maybe in the short term we could get a drug that reduced men's inclincation to be jealous of sexual contact with their s.o.'s that doesn't pose a threat to the relationship. Then maybe marriage+serial affairs would be a decent solution.
I would like more citations and less speculation.
What do you mean by the Burke reference (sorry, he is not really often cited locally, so what were his views on marriage etc)?
Are you aware how non-monogamy works in the free love/polyamorous/... tradition as compared to e.g. abrahamic polygamy? Actually the result seems to be that all kinds of more balanced webs, rather than hypergamous polygamy. Culture seems to make a large difference.
If you read my comments carefully there are not many categoric statements about men there. If you think that women are confused about what they want, then the obvious solution is to help more women overcome biases in their lives, rather than trying to shift stereotypes.
Do you think that males who act more feminist are really more attractive, individually, *after* they actually *do* the “feminist man” type of behavior — as opposed to you honestly wanting them to do it, before they actually do it, and in general?
I don't know how my preferences are relevant, but if you are curious (based on past and current relationships):+ hot: androgyny, radical honesty between friends, constant re-negotation of relationships, self confidence, playing with power dynamics and pain- turn-off: traditional roles, lying, people pretending to be friends while wanting only sex
Currently I'm with multiple people, one of whom is a feminist man and he is very hot.