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Phil Getts's avatar

I'm a defender of group selection, but I haven't heard some of Robin's arguments for it before, and want to issue some caveats.

> The fact that more species today descended from fragmented habits like rivers, coral reefs, and rainforests, where habitats were smaller, suggests that group selection of species has actually mattered more for DNA than individual selection within species.

Claims about "most species" have serious definitional problems, such as that there are an astounding number of species of beetles, and there are families which have a very small number of species, such as elephants (3), and others with many species, all similar (finches).

That said, Wilson and MacArthur's island theory of biogeography, which they proposed in the 1950s and is now well-validated, shows that the number of species found on an island is a power law of the island's area, with an exponent of about 0.29. This implies that you get exponentially more species produced from a given land area by subdividing it into smaller and smaller islands. And that predicts that fragmented habitats produce many more species per unit area than less-fragmented habitats.

The usual explanation for this power-law relationship does not involve group selection, but I was never entirely happy with that explanation. My intuition says that smaller islands have more speciation events because they have smaller populations, which means population size is more stochastic, which makes group selection events more frequent. Not just because extinctions are more common; also because the brief bursts of co-evolutionary cascades that punctuate punctuated equilibria are more-common since the whole system is more noisy. I just explained this to Gemini, and told it how to model the system using Stuart Kauffmann's NK dynamics and the binomial and Poisson distributions, and it says that approach also produces the same power law (though I haven't yet checked its math, and haven't got the data to check whether the constant exponent is the same). If /that/ is the "true" explanation, then your statement is basically correct.

The other proviso I want to add is that "mattered more for DNA than individual selection" depends on how you measure "mattered more". About 16 years ago i gathered a lot of data on where each HMMER and Pfam pattern (patterns which match evolutionarily related families of genes) first occurred in the evolutionary tree of life, and I found that something like 3/4 of all genes (for which there are HMMER or Pfam patterns; this is a bit problematic because somebody who studied only fungi developed a whole lot of Pfam templates)--anyway, most gene families evolved in bacteria. If we measure what "mattered more for DNA" by counting matching base pairs or amino acid motifs of the coding regions of genes, the answer is going to be that bacterial evolution contributed more to your and my DNA than did the entire evolution of Chordata.

We might well find group selection in bacteria--we definitely find it in one slime mold (not a bacteria, but single-celled), and the evolution of biofilms, in which some bacteria sacrifice themselves to protect the group, sure smells of group selection--but bacterial evolution is very different from eukaryotic evolution, because there is so much lateral gene transfer across species. Bacteria will literally fuck anything that moves.

Rob Sica's avatar

"most cultural evolution scholars see group selection as a key force"

I wonder if this is so.

Here, in a single doc, is last year's Paris School alternative to dual-inheritance theory published in Evolution & Human Behavior, followed by commentaries (some of which include dual-inheritance advocates) and authors' response to them:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/n7wka68pli0kqxjw8jhk5/Baumard_Andre_Ecological_approach_to_culture_with_commentaries.pdf?rlkey=aro2x0a41rk3o0womvmg0qd6b&e=3&dl=0

Here's a brief summary:

https://www.hbes.com/reconciling-our-three-traditions-the-ecological-approach-to-culture/

Also, if memory serves, somewhere near the end of this recent podcast, Robert Boyd seems to hint at some disagreement with Henrich over the extent or importance of cultural group selection:

https://epthepod.podbean.com/e/rob-boyd/

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