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Stephen Diamond's avatar

Most of this seems irrelevant to your debate with Bryan Caplan. The critical issue is the importance of consciousness for being human. If you concede (as you seem to, if only for the sake of argument) that future biological humans will be viewed as lacking consciousness, it's hard not to take seriously the likelihood that we will think they aren't human. (Of course, we wouldn't automatically deny them consciousness because of their constitution: unless future folks are all dyed in the woold dualists like Bryan.) But relevant to the study, I'd have to agree that the low rating of consciousness at least requires more attention. It's pretty weird - unless I'm misled by the intensity of qualia proponents about how much many seem to value their illusions of subjective experience.

Maybe I can suggest a different approach to whether ems will be dehumanized. Following Durkheimian sociology, one would expect the solidarity between ems and humans to be a function of their involvement or lack of involment in common interaction rituals. If ems are consituted as outsiders in biological human interaction rituals, they will be dehumanized.

Wouldn't the gross disparity in mental speed be a severe obstacle to there being common interaction rituals?

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Joe's avatar

I do think Bryan's argument here re: docility in particular is very odd. Specifically I'm referring to his claim that an advantage of docile workers, which would cause them to be selected for by the em economy, is that they don't ask for high pay.

I'm I'm understanding this right, it suggests quite a bizarre view our world. Firstly it says that wages today are largely determined by how much workers demand. Highly paid individuals aren't actually any more productive, they just will refuse to work without large salaries, so that's what they're given.

Meanwhile the most productive individuals aren't actually the highest paid: they're randomly dispersed through the pay scale. Some of the best workers in the world are on incredibly low wages, because they're so docile that they'll happily accept that; it doesn't occur to them to ask for more money or find work elsewhere. They aren't ever headhunted, or if they are they turn it down because they're so loyal to their current company.

How do firms deal with the existence of such individuals? Do they just accept them when they appear as an unexpected boon? Do they seek them out before they've become attached to a firm? How do they try to make the docile individuals pick them as the firm they latch onto and never ask for a pay rise from?

The alternative model, which I think Robin is working based on, is one in which most everyone will try to get the highest wages they can, while also being willing to work for very low wages if that's what's needed to survive. Therefore wages reflect the value of the worker's labour; it might be the case that an incredibly productive individual is sitting near the bottom of the pay scale, but it's not the way to bet.

On this model, it doesn't matter what em world workers demand to be paid: they accept the market rate or they don't get to exist. So docility doesn't even come into it.

With the other traits mentioned that ems might or might not have, I think it's more debatable which way it would go. And docility is even included in that -- but this particular argument for docility is, I think, pretty clearly wrong.

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