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	<title>Comments on: Motivated Legal Bias</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/03/motivated-legal-bias.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: Law, Power, and Status &#171; azmytheconomics</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/03/motivated-legal-bias.html#comment-686125</link>
		<dc:creator>Law, Power, and Status &#171; azmytheconomics</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jan 2012 20:48:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=22174#comment-686125</guid>
		<description>[...] Restrict the Low Status Low status people are punished more, restricted more, and their hypocracy is tolerated less. High status people are better at [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Restrict the Low Status Low status people are punished more, restricted more, and their hypocracy is tolerated less. High status people are better at [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen R. Diamond</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/03/motivated-legal-bias.html#comment-444196</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen R. Diamond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 21:46:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=22174#comment-444196</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;We instead prefer a legal system with lots of specific rules, where in the end “reasonable” people are allowed to exercise “judgment” about how to “interpret” the rules.   It sure looks like what we want is the appearance of constraining ourselves to follow rules, combined with the practice of arbitrary choice.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Why is your inference that we seek merely the constraint&#039;s appearance more plausible than the straightforward alternative: we most prefer &lt;em&gt;mild &lt;/em&gt;constraints? Telling against yours— imperfections of constraint don&#039;t prove its absence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>We instead prefer a legal system with lots of specific rules, where in the end “reasonable” people are allowed to exercise “judgment” about how to “interpret” the rules.   It sure looks like what we want is the appearance of constraining ourselves to follow rules, combined with the practice of arbitrary choice.</p></blockquote>
<p>Why is your inference that we seek merely the constraint&#8217;s appearance more plausible than the straightforward alternative: we most prefer <em>mild </em>constraints? Telling against yours— imperfections of constraint don&#8217;t prove its absence.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/03/motivated-legal-bias.html#comment-443966</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 22:27:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=22174#comment-443966</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;If the opposite errors were suddenly to become common, enormous concern would be expressed, great resources would be spent, and we’d be willing to consider large institutional changes to eliminate them.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
How do you know that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>If the opposite errors were suddenly to become common, enormous concern would be expressed, great resources would be spent, and we’d be willing to consider large institutional changes to eliminate them.</p></blockquote>
<p>How do you know that?</p>
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		<title>By: mjohns2</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/03/motivated-legal-bias.html#comment-443936</link>
		<dc:creator>mjohns2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 05:31:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=22174#comment-443936</guid>
		<description>This appears to be the law review article / study: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.houstonlawreview.org/archive/downloads/45-3_pdf/45_3_04_Phillips.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.houstonlawreview.org/archive/downloads/45-3_pdf/45_3_04_Phillips.pdf&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This appears to be the law review article / study: <a href="http://www.houstonlawreview.org/archive/downloads/45-3_pdf/45_3_04_Phillips.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.houstonlawreview.org/archive/downloads/45-3_pdf/45_3_04_Phillips.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: DWCrmcm</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/03/motivated-legal-bias.html#comment-443932</link>
		<dc:creator>DWCrmcm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 03:51:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=22174#comment-443932</guid>
		<description>Sounds like you are suggesting that a higher status will kill a lower status to save face, and by extrapolation juries will empathize and act accordingly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds like you are suggesting that a higher status will kill a lower status to save face, and by extrapolation juries will empathize and act accordingly.</p>
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		<title>By: DWCrmcm</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/03/motivated-legal-bias.html#comment-443926</link>
		<dc:creator>DWCrmcm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 23:33:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=22174#comment-443926</guid>
		<description>My bias alarm went off when I realized the it was a University of Denver analysis of Texas legal phenomena, and the article linked back only to University of Denver website. 
Let us assume indifference to the above for a simpler context. Let us assume further that the victims&#039; status juxtaposed with the convicts&#039; status is the prime factor. In model-speak -

[victim status l:l convict status]. 

If this juxtaposition precipitates one&#039;s ambivalence, then, with your permission, I submit that our model asserts you are one in search of the attributes of greater truth. Justice should be such an undertaking.

Is it bias when we allow high status citizens greater behavioral discretion, than low status citizens? Is it bias when we allow juries discretion?

[famous actor murder conviction l:l famous obstetrician murder conviction]

Status is bias; that is its value. 

Maybe we need to focus more on a question of when to overcome bias.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My bias alarm went off when I realized the it was a University of Denver analysis of Texas legal phenomena, and the article linked back only to University of Denver website.<br />
Let us assume indifference to the above for a simpler context. Let us assume further that the victims&#8217; status juxtaposed with the convicts&#8217; status is the prime factor. In model-speak -</p>
<p>[victim status l:l convict status]. </p>
<p>If this juxtaposition precipitates one&#8217;s ambivalence, then, with your permission, I submit that our model asserts you are one in search of the attributes of greater truth. Justice should be such an undertaking.</p>
<p>Is it bias when we allow high status citizens greater behavioral discretion, than low status citizens? Is it bias when we allow juries discretion?</p>
<p>[famous actor murder conviction l:l famous obstetrician murder conviction]</p>
<p>Status is bias; that is its value. </p>
<p>Maybe we need to focus more on a question of when to overcome bias.</p>
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		<title>By: Oliver Steele</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/03/motivated-legal-bias.html#comment-443922</link>
		<dc:creator>Oliver Steele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 20:08:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=22174#comment-443922</guid>
		<description>Commentator Philo writes &quot;[W]e actually do want to be following rules. [...] We just don’t want to articulate the rules that we are using, and that we want to use. Partly, they are too complicated; partly we don’t want to see them articulated because we don’t want to have to acknowledge them.&quot; The first case being that we might not have declarative access to the rules that we trust to make judgements (just as most language users don&#039;t have access to the rules of grammar); the second being that there might be at least two different systems that both have to be satisfied.

You could explode the second category into two subcategories depending on whether the contradictory systems are within a person, or within a society (i.e. on how you distribute &quot;want&quot; over &quot;we&quot;). Each member of a society individually might not want to acknowledge the rules, or the society as a whole might not want to acknowledge because this would alert some members that their system isn&#039;t being used.

In this second subcategory, where different constituents want different rules, attempting to formalize them would surface (and necessitate a response to) the conflict. Formalizing them prior to legislation might prevent us from having a body of law. Recovering the implicit rules from the behavior, via statistical analysis, avoids putting this resolution on the critical path towards creating a legal system, and makes it easier to avoid the conflict -- since then resolving the conflict isn&#039;t any critical path; and since the recovered rules don&#039;t have the same ontological status (it&#039;s not clear whether the methods of any particular study are valid, as some of the comments illustrate); and since they don&#039;t have the same epistemic status (many people don&#039;t believe anything that touches statistics, as evinced by the arguments about statistical sampling for the census, or about the evidence about climate change).

Maybe these reasons apply to the intrapersonal case of &quot;we don&#039;t want to have to acknowledge them&quot; too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Commentator Philo writes &#8220;[W]e actually do want to be following rules. [...] We just don’t want to articulate the rules that we are using, and that we want to use. Partly, they are too complicated; partly we don’t want to see them articulated because we don’t want to have to acknowledge them.&#8221; The first case being that we might not have declarative access to the rules that we trust to make judgements (just as most language users don&#8217;t have access to the rules of grammar); the second being that there might be at least two different systems that both have to be satisfied.</p>
<p>You could explode the second category into two subcategories depending on whether the contradictory systems are within a person, or within a society (i.e. on how you distribute &#8220;want&#8221; over &#8220;we&#8221;). Each member of a society individually might not want to acknowledge the rules, or the society as a whole might not want to acknowledge because this would alert some members that their system isn&#8217;t being used.</p>
<p>In this second subcategory, where different constituents want different rules, attempting to formalize them would surface (and necessitate a response to) the conflict. Formalizing them prior to legislation might prevent us from having a body of law. Recovering the implicit rules from the behavior, via statistical analysis, avoids putting this resolution on the critical path towards creating a legal system, and makes it easier to avoid the conflict &#8212; since then resolving the conflict isn&#8217;t any critical path; and since the recovered rules don&#8217;t have the same ontological status (it&#8217;s not clear whether the methods of any particular study are valid, as some of the comments illustrate); and since they don&#8217;t have the same epistemic status (many people don&#8217;t believe anything that touches statistics, as evinced by the arguments about statistical sampling for the census, or about the evidence about climate change).</p>
<p>Maybe these reasons apply to the intrapersonal case of &#8220;we don&#8217;t want to have to acknowledge them&#8221; too.</p>
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		<title>By: Philo</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/03/motivated-legal-bias.html#comment-443920</link>
		<dc:creator>Philo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 19:23:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=22174#comment-443920</guid>
		<description>The most striking sentence in the post:  &quot;It sure looks like what we want is the appearance of constraining ourselves to follow rules, combined with the practice of arbitrary choice.&quot;  But this is only half right.  We certainly want to appear to be following rules but, in fact, we actually do want to be following rules.  We don&#039;t want, and we don&#039;t have, &quot;arbitrary choice.&quot;  We just don&#039;t want to articulate the rules that we are using, and that we want to use.  Partly, they are too complicated; partly we don&#039;t want to see them articulated because we don&#039;t want to have to acknowledge them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The most striking sentence in the post:  &#8220;It sure looks like what we want is the appearance of constraining ourselves to follow rules, combined with the practice of arbitrary choice.&#8221;  But this is only half right.  We certainly want to appear to be following rules but, in fact, we actually do want to be following rules.  We don&#8217;t want, and we don&#8217;t have, &#8220;arbitrary choice.&#8221;  We just don&#8217;t want to articulate the rules that we are using, and that we want to use.  Partly, they are too complicated; partly we don&#8217;t want to see them articulated because we don&#8217;t want to have to acknowledge them.</p>
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		<title>By: tndal</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/03/motivated-legal-bias.html#comment-443918</link>
		<dc:creator>tndal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 18:15:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=22174#comment-443918</guid>
		<description>So it is a more serious crime to kill someone who is socially well-adapted than someone who is not? 

Is this not OK? Is it not absolutely normal and good? What else would one expect of a group&#039;s behavior? I fail to see any problem here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So it is a more serious crime to kill someone who is socially well-adapted than someone who is not? </p>
<p>Is this not OK? Is it not absolutely normal and good? What else would one expect of a group&#8217;s behavior? I fail to see any problem here.</p>
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		<title>By: Tyrrell McAllister</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/03/motivated-legal-bias.html#comment-443917</link>
		<dc:creator>Tyrrell McAllister</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 17:50:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=22174#comment-443917</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;It sure looks like what we want is the appearance of constraining ourselves to follow rules, combined with the practice of arbitrary choice.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It would look more like that if anyone could come up with a purely rule-based way to decide legal cases that did &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; have obvious and undeniable problems that made it blatantly unacceptable to everyone.  I&#039;m referring to problems that are far more undeniable than racial bias, such as frequently jailing people universally acknowledged to be innocent of wrong-doing.

Since no one has been able to do that, the hypothesis remains plausible that our legal system is approximately as rule-based as we are able to make it without failing in such manifest ways.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>It sure looks like what we want is the appearance of constraining ourselves to follow rules, combined with the practice of arbitrary choice.</p></blockquote>
<p>It would look more like that if anyone could come up with a purely rule-based way to decide legal cases that did <em>not</em> have obvious and undeniable problems that made it blatantly unacceptable to everyone.  I&#8217;m referring to problems that are far more undeniable than racial bias, such as frequently jailing people universally acknowledged to be innocent of wrong-doing.</p>
<p>Since no one has been able to do that, the hypothesis remains plausible that our legal system is approximately as rule-based as we are able to make it without failing in such manifest ways.</p>
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