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	<title>Comments on: Should Lies Be Free?</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/02/should-lies-be-free.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: Overcoming Bias : We Ban Lies, To Officials</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/02/should-lies-be-free.html#comment-508193</link>
		<dc:creator>Overcoming Bias : We Ban Lies, To Officials</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Sep 2011 02:02:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=21845#comment-508193</guid>
		<description>[...] I posted before on not seeing why lies should be legal, many complained that laws against lies are impractical. But [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I posted before on not seeing why lies should be legal, many complained that laws against lies are impractical. But [...]</p>
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		<title>By: loqi</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/02/should-lies-be-free.html#comment-442676</link>
		<dc:creator>loqi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Feb 2010 20:26:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=21845#comment-442676</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;But before jumping to the signalling suggestion, why not simply observe that goverment-enforced compulsory speech on certain subjects has a rather poor track record?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I wonder how Robin would explain his apparent fondness for &quot;inside view&quot; explanations involving signaling and social interactions, when they conflict with commonly-held &quot;outside view&quot; beliefs such as the above. Perhaps something along &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/06/singularity-out.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;these lines&lt;/a&gt;?

&lt;blockquote&gt;Excess inside viewing usually continues even after folks are warned that outside viewing works better; after all, inside viewing better show offs inside knowledge and abilities.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>But before jumping to the signalling suggestion, why not simply observe that goverment-enforced compulsory speech on certain subjects has a rather poor track record?</p></blockquote>
<p>I wonder how Robin would explain his apparent fondness for &#8220;inside view&#8221; explanations involving signaling and social interactions, when they conflict with commonly-held &#8220;outside view&#8221; beliefs such as the above. Perhaps something along <a href="http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/06/singularity-out.html" rel="nofollow">these lines</a>?</p>
<blockquote><p>Excess inside viewing usually continues even after folks are warned that outside viewing works better; after all, inside viewing better show offs inside knowledge and abilities.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Daublin</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/02/should-lies-be-free.html#comment-442644</link>
		<dc:creator>Daublin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Feb 2010 04:14:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=21845#comment-442644</guid>
		<description>You make a good case, Robin, given an idealized court.  However, when it comes to practice, I don&#039;t feel good about a trial where no one involved was directly harmed.  The court will end up meting out more punishment than is just, for two reasons.

The first is that the victim is not there to call the trial off.  In practice, many times when someone has legal standing to sue someone else, they don&#039;t bother.  They might feel that they have gotten restitution through an outside channel.  Or, they might think that the whole matter is a technicality.  There is no such check when a government agent is doing the prosecuting.  The agent doesn&#039;t have to stop, and indeed might feel compelled to press on as part of their job description.

The second problem is that such courts use far-mode judgments.  If a specific harmed person were there, the members of the court could make judgments about that specific person&#039;s harms.  Without such a person present, they have to weigh the harms done to an amorphous set of the general public.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You make a good case, Robin, given an idealized court.  However, when it comes to practice, I don&#8217;t feel good about a trial where no one involved was directly harmed.  The court will end up meting out more punishment than is just, for two reasons.</p>
<p>The first is that the victim is not there to call the trial off.  In practice, many times when someone has legal standing to sue someone else, they don&#8217;t bother.  They might feel that they have gotten restitution through an outside channel.  Or, they might think that the whole matter is a technicality.  There is no such check when a government agent is doing the prosecuting.  The agent doesn&#8217;t have to stop, and indeed might feel compelled to press on as part of their job description.</p>
<p>The second problem is that such courts use far-mode judgments.  If a specific harmed person were there, the members of the court could make judgments about that specific person&#8217;s harms.  Without such a person present, they have to weigh the harms done to an amorphous set of the general public.</p>
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		<title>By: Morgan</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/02/should-lies-be-free.html#comment-442590</link>
		<dc:creator>Morgan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 23:49:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=21845#comment-442590</guid>
		<description>I think there needs to be a distinction here between mere lying, as an exaggeration of credentials (like padding a resume, impressing a lady at the bar) and outright impersonation. There are laws against impersonating police officers and doctors aren&#039;t there? If a person claims he has a medal, but doesn&#039;t, isn&#039;t he impersonating a war hero? I can see where pretending to be a doctor or policeman could compromise safety and be dangerous. 

Misrepresenting yourself as a war hero doesn&#039;t seem to endanger anyone physically, or cause financial harm, but it does cause harm. This isn&#039;t just an issue of insulting real soldiers&#039; service to the country, but lying about a government bestowed honor is like claiming all the people in the US think you are worthy and deserving of such. (The government represents the people after all).   Real war heroes did a lot to earn their decoration, and it cheapens their award for someone undeserving to claim it also. As an American taxpayer, I expect the honors my government bestows on the behalf of its citizens to go to someone worthy and deserving. Copyright or trademark violation might hurt an individual, or even an entire corporation, so couldn&#039;t it be argued thatlying about a government award insults and hurts the citizens represented by that government, even if it costs us nothing monetarily? 

Even if you consider it as a lie, not an impersonation, it is still a lie affecting the honor of a nation of people. This is the kind of thing, if legislated, should be enforced by giving the offenders a great deal of community service, so they can know what it really means to serve.

But I see no point at all in making such a law in order to simply &lt;em&gt;protect&lt;/em&gt; the public from a lying scumbag. It was no doubt enacted as an honorary gesture to service people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there needs to be a distinction here between mere lying, as an exaggeration of credentials (like padding a resume, impressing a lady at the bar) and outright impersonation. There are laws against impersonating police officers and doctors aren&#8217;t there? If a person claims he has a medal, but doesn&#8217;t, isn&#8217;t he impersonating a war hero? I can see where pretending to be a doctor or policeman could compromise safety and be dangerous. </p>
<p>Misrepresenting yourself as a war hero doesn&#8217;t seem to endanger anyone physically, or cause financial harm, but it does cause harm. This isn&#8217;t just an issue of insulting real soldiers&#8217; service to the country, but lying about a government bestowed honor is like claiming all the people in the US think you are worthy and deserving of such. (The government represents the people after all).   Real war heroes did a lot to earn their decoration, and it cheapens their award for someone undeserving to claim it also. As an American taxpayer, I expect the honors my government bestows on the behalf of its citizens to go to someone worthy and deserving. Copyright or trademark violation might hurt an individual, or even an entire corporation, so couldn&#8217;t it be argued thatlying about a government award insults and hurts the citizens represented by that government, even if it costs us nothing monetarily? </p>
<p>Even if you consider it as a lie, not an impersonation, it is still a lie affecting the honor of a nation of people. This is the kind of thing, if legislated, should be enforced by giving the offenders a great deal of community service, so they can know what it really means to serve.</p>
<p>But I see no point at all in making such a law in order to simply <em>protect</em> the public from a lying scumbag. It was no doubt enacted as an honorary gesture to service people.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Ayers</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/02/should-lies-be-free.html#comment-442588</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Ayers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 22:19:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=21845#comment-442588</guid>
		<description>I tend to frame the issue not as &quot;should lying be legal&quot; but as &quot;should prosecutors or people with lawyers be able to inflict ruinous legal costs on speakers that they disagree with&quot;.
I feel the same way about libel laws.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I tend to frame the issue not as &#8220;should lying be legal&#8221; but as &#8220;should prosecutors or people with lawyers be able to inflict ruinous legal costs on speakers that they disagree with&#8221;.<br />
I feel the same way about libel laws.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey Soreff</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/02/should-lies-be-free.html#comment-442586</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey Soreff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 20:29:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=21845#comment-442586</guid>
		<description>One special category of lies that no one seems to have discussed yet is perjury.  That certainly carries a penalty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One special category of lies that no one seems to have discussed yet is perjury.  That certainly carries a penalty.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/02/should-lies-be-free.html#comment-442574</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 15:44:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=21845#comment-442574</guid>
		<description>Robin, the slippery slope I referred to was that of telling putative &quot;white lies&quot; which actually become self-serving and do harm.  NOT the slippery slope of legal remedies to every ill.  
How do I know which harmful behaviors should be &quot;discouraged&quot; by laws?  I don&#039;t, I simply speculated on some reasons why trying to ban &quot;lying&quot; would be impractical.  In my own life I find that the most effective &quot;lies&quot; that drive me crazy are either accompanied by self-delusion or are &quot;not technically lies&quot; -- ie bullshit.  A person who can not assimilate delusions OR lie and bullshit would have no career in many fields, so the arms race must continue unless uniform disarmament is possible.  C&#039;est la vie.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin, the slippery slope I referred to was that of telling putative &#8220;white lies&#8221; which actually become self-serving and do harm.  NOT the slippery slope of legal remedies to every ill.<br />
How do I know which harmful behaviors should be &#8220;discouraged&#8221; by laws?  I don&#8217;t, I simply speculated on some reasons why trying to ban &#8220;lying&#8221; would be impractical.  In my own life I find that the most effective &#8220;lies&#8221; that drive me crazy are either accompanied by self-delusion or are &#8220;not technically lies&#8221; &#8212; ie bullshit.  A person who can not assimilate delusions OR lie and bullshit would have no career in many fields, so the arms race must continue unless uniform disarmament is possible.  C&#8217;est la vie.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee Kelly</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/02/should-lies-be-free.html#comment-442571</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee Kelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 15:10:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=21845#comment-442571</guid>
		<description>So what you&#039;re saying is that politics should be illegal?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So what you&#8217;re saying is that politics should be illegal?</p>
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		<title>By: Doug S.</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/02/should-lies-be-free.html#comment-442566</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 11:47:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=21845#comment-442566</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I’m having trouble thinking of a lie that causes financial harm and is of a private nature. Maybe someone else can.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&quot;I don&#039;t have HIV.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I’m having trouble thinking of a lie that causes financial harm and is of a private nature. Maybe someone else can.</p></blockquote>
<p>&#8220;I don&#8217;t have HIV.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: pdf23ds</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/02/should-lies-be-free.html#comment-442557</link>
		<dc:creator>pdf23ds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 05:26:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=21845#comment-442557</guid>
		<description>One should be allowed to file a suit on behalf of a large group of people who were all similarly harmed by a $10 (or 50 cent) product.

Anyway, if you buy a $10 pressure cooker and it explodes under normal use, causing you severe injury, you should be able to sue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One should be allowed to file a suit on behalf of a large group of people who were all similarly harmed by a $10 (or 50 cent) product.</p>
<p>Anyway, if you buy a $10 pressure cooker and it explodes under normal use, causing you severe injury, you should be able to sue.</p>
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