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	<title>Comments on: Not Guilty By Reading</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/02/not-guilty-by-reading.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: Continuous Productivity</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/02/not-guilty-by-reading.html#comment-442769</link>
		<dc:creator>Continuous Productivity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Feb 2010 01:38:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Benefit of Clergy...&lt;/strong&gt;

I came across a fascinating little law called the &quot;benefit of clergy&quot; over at the Overcoming Bias blog. The basic idea of this wonderful law was that one could be tried in an ecclesiastical court as opposed to a secular......</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Benefit of Clergy&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>I came across a fascinating little law called the &#8220;benefit of clergy&#8221; over at the Overcoming Bias blog. The basic idea of this wonderful law was that one could be tried in an ecclesiastical court as opposed to a secular&#8230;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Armstrong</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/02/not-guilty-by-reading.html#comment-442286</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Armstrong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 17:57:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The English literate classes had quite a conspiracy going to help themselves at the expense of others!&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Egad! Never thought they would be so blatant. They even added the illiterate peers into the mix to preserve their privileges.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The English literate classes had quite a conspiracy going to help themselves at the expense of others!</p></blockquote>
<p>Egad! Never thought they would be so blatant. They even added the illiterate peers into the mix to preserve their privileges.</p>
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		<title>By: Vladimir</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/02/not-guilty-by-reading.html#comment-442258</link>
		<dc:creator>Vladimir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Feb 2010 00:32:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Another thing to have in mind is that English post-Reformation legal authors viewed the medieval origins of the benefit of clergy with a strong anti-Catholic bias, and this has undoubtedly colored the modern views at least somewhat. For example, Blackstone introduces the topic with a hilariously cartoonish King-good-Pope-bad &lt;a href=&quot;http://oll.libertyfund.org/?option=com_staticxt&amp;staticfile=show.php%3Ftitle=2142&amp;chapter=198941&amp;layout=html&amp;Itemid=27&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;outburst&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Clergy, the &lt;em&gt;privilegium clericale&lt;/em&gt;, or, in common speech, the &lt;em&gt;benefit of clergy&lt;/em&gt;, had its original from the pious regard paid by Christian princes to the church in its infant state, and the ill use which the popish ecclesiastics soon made of that pious regard. The exemptions which they granted to the church were principally of two kinds: 1. Exemption of places consecrated to religious duties from criminal arrests, which was the foundation of sanctuaries. 2. Exemption of the persons of clergymen from criminal process before the secular judge in a few particular cases, which was the true original and meaning of the &lt;em&gt;privilegium clericale&lt;/em&gt;.

But the clergy, increasing in wealth, power, honour, number, and interest, began soon to set up for themselves; and that which they obtained by the favour of the civil government they now claimed as their inherent right, and as a right of the highest nature, indefeasible, and &lt;em&gt;jure divino&lt;/em&gt;. By their canons therefore and constitutions they endeavoured at, and where they met with easy princes obtained, a vast extension of these exemptions, as well in regard to the crimes themselves, of which the list became quite universal, as in regard to the persons exempted, among whom were at length comprehended not only every little subordinate officer belonging to the church or clergy, but even many that were totally laymen.

In England, however, although the usurpations of the pope were very many and grievous till Henry the Eighth entirely exterminated his supremacy, yet a total exemption of the clergy from secular jurisdiction could never be thoroughly effected...&lt;/blockquote&gt;

In any case, the medieval power struggles between the Church and secular rulers that resulted (among many other things) in the English institution of the benefit of clergy were much more complex than either Blackstone&#039;s simplistic anti-popish story or a mere class-solidarity conspiracy of the literate. It&#039;s questionable if the real history of this institution can even be written given what we know today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another thing to have in mind is that English post-Reformation legal authors viewed the medieval origins of the benefit of clergy with a strong anti-Catholic bias, and this has undoubtedly colored the modern views at least somewhat. For example, Blackstone introduces the topic with a hilariously cartoonish King-good-Pope-bad <a href="http://oll.libertyfund.org/?option=com_staticxt&amp;staticfile=show.php%3Ftitle=2142&amp;chapter=198941&amp;layout=html&amp;Itemid=27" rel="nofollow">outburst</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>Clergy, the <em>privilegium clericale</em>, or, in common speech, the <em>benefit of clergy</em>, had its original from the pious regard paid by Christian princes to the church in its infant state, and the ill use which the popish ecclesiastics soon made of that pious regard. The exemptions which they granted to the church were principally of two kinds: 1. Exemption of places consecrated to religious duties from criminal arrests, which was the foundation of sanctuaries. 2. Exemption of the persons of clergymen from criminal process before the secular judge in a few particular cases, which was the true original and meaning of the <em>privilegium clericale</em>.</p>
<p>But the clergy, increasing in wealth, power, honour, number, and interest, began soon to set up for themselves; and that which they obtained by the favour of the civil government they now claimed as their inherent right, and as a right of the highest nature, indefeasible, and <em>jure divino</em>. By their canons therefore and constitutions they endeavoured at, and where they met with easy princes obtained, a vast extension of these exemptions, as well in regard to the crimes themselves, of which the list became quite universal, as in regard to the persons exempted, among whom were at length comprehended not only every little subordinate officer belonging to the church or clergy, but even many that were totally laymen.</p>
<p>In England, however, although the usurpations of the pope were very many and grievous till Henry the Eighth entirely exterminated his supremacy, yet a total exemption of the clergy from secular jurisdiction could never be thoroughly effected&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<p>In any case, the medieval power struggles between the Church and secular rulers that resulted (among many other things) in the English institution of the benefit of clergy were much more complex than either Blackstone&#8217;s simplistic anti-popish story or a mere class-solidarity conspiracy of the literate. It&#8217;s questionable if the real history of this institution can even be written given what we know today.</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Knight</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/02/not-guilty-by-reading.html#comment-442252</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Knight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 17:06:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Maybe it was a conspiracy of some other group than the literate?

One theory about why it was always the same verse is that the judges administering it were not literate; and it seems likely, though not necessary, that they were part of any such conspiracy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe it was a conspiracy of some other group than the literate?</p>
<p>One theory about why it was always the same verse is that the judges administering it were not literate; and it seems likely, though not necessary, that they were part of any such conspiracy.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/02/not-guilty-by-reading.html#comment-442248</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 16:01:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I&#039;ve edited the post to be clearer on this point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve edited the post to be clearer on this point.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/02/not-guilty-by-reading.html#comment-442247</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 16:01:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>See my added to the post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See my added to the post.</p>
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		<title>By: gwern</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/02/not-guilty-by-reading.html#comment-442246</link>
		<dc:creator>gwern</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 15:48:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=21758#comment-442246</guid>
		<description>&gt; Citing Wikipedia is likely to lead to the sort of confusion that Simetrical is chiding gwern over

As it happens, I&#039;ve read the same Clark material Hanson has. None of us is confused is about it being the first verse - nor is Wikipedia, which you will note does quote the first verse in one of Hanson&#039;s ellipses. That it is not specific &amp; clear about this, even if it is implied by the &#039;Neck Verse&#039; quote, is not an error or confusion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; Citing Wikipedia is likely to lead to the sort of confusion that Simetrical is chiding gwern over</p>
<p>As it happens, I&#8217;ve read the same Clark material Hanson has. None of us is confused is about it being the first verse &#8211; nor is Wikipedia, which you will note does quote the first verse in one of Hanson&#8217;s ellipses. That it is not specific &amp; clear about this, even if it is implied by the &#8216;Neck Verse&#8217; quote, is not an error or confusion.</p>
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		<title>By: Tyrrell McAllister</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/02/not-guilty-by-reading.html#comment-442245</link>
		<dc:creator>Tyrrell McAllister</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 15:46:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Muslims are not granted any indulgences.  They are just using binding arbitration, and everyone has access to that.  From your own link:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Under the act, the sharia courts are classified as arbitration tribunals. The rulings of arbitration tribunals are binding in law, provided that both parties in the dispute agree to give it the power to rule on their case.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Muslims are not granted any indulgences.  They are just using binding arbitration, and everyone has access to that.  From your own link:</p>
<blockquote><p>Under the act, the sharia courts are classified as arbitration tribunals. The rulings of arbitration tribunals are binding in law, provided that both parties in the dispute agree to give it the power to rule on their case.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: gwern</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/02/not-guilty-by-reading.html#comment-442244</link>
		<dc:creator>gwern</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 15:43:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>To fail less hard, do more research:
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22benefit+of+clergy%22+%22first+verse%22+-wiki

One verse is trivial to memorize.

Even the whole damn thing isn&#039;t too difficult for someone of an oral culture. It&#039;s not like it wasn&#039;t translated with an eye to being memorable. The prospect of hanging wonderfully focuses the mind, and the entire Psalm is comparable in length to things like the Lord&#039;s Prayer or the Nicean Creed or many popular songs and ballads.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To fail less hard, do more research:<br />
<a href="http://www.google.com/search?q=%22benefit+of+clergy%22+%22first+verse%22+-wiki" rel="nofollow">http://www.google.com/search?q=%22benefit+of+clergy%22+%22first+verse%22+-wiki</a></p>
<p>One verse is trivial to memorize.</p>
<p>Even the whole damn thing isn&#8217;t too difficult for someone of an oral culture. It&#8217;s not like it wasn&#8217;t translated with an eye to being memorable. The prospect of hanging wonderfully focuses the mind, and the entire Psalm is comparable in length to things like the Lord&#8217;s Prayer or the Nicean Creed or many popular songs and ballads.</p>
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		<title>By: Erik M</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/02/not-guilty-by-reading.html#comment-442243</link>
		<dc:creator>Erik M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 15:32:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Citing Wikipedia is likely to lead to the sort of confusion that Simetrical is chiding gwern over, especially when it doesn&#039;t have any linked citations at the bottom. I counter with The Free Dictionary:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Neck+verse
&quot;The verse formerly read to entitle a party to the benefit of clergy, said to be the first verse of the fifty-first Psalm&quot;

And slightly more seriously: Bartleby gives it as &quot;Psalm li. 1&quot;, a form of notation indicating the first verse. This is what I learned in school as well, so I&#039;m fairly confident that Wikipedia is wrong, and it seems Robin Hanson is either naive or cynical to be accepting it.
http://www.bartleby.com/81/11965.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Citing Wikipedia is likely to lead to the sort of confusion that Simetrical is chiding gwern over, especially when it doesn&#8217;t have any linked citations at the bottom. I counter with The Free Dictionary:<br />
<a href="http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Neck+verse" rel="nofollow">http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Neck+verse</a><br />
&#8220;The verse formerly read to entitle a party to the benefit of clergy, said to be the first verse of the fifty-first Psalm&#8221;</p>
<p>And slightly more seriously: Bartleby gives it as &#8220;Psalm li. 1&#8243;, a form of notation indicating the first verse. This is what I learned in school as well, so I&#8217;m fairly confident that Wikipedia is wrong, and it seems Robin Hanson is either naive or cynical to be accepting it.<br />
<a href="http://www.bartleby.com/81/11965.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.bartleby.com/81/11965.html</a></p>
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