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	<title>Comments on: Swinger Trends</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/01/swinger-trends.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: Rafael</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/01/swinger-trends.html#comment-442181</link>
		<dc:creator>Rafael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 11:56:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=21680#comment-442181</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t have a college degree.Nor does she. Does that mean we are stupid? To people that believe a college degree is a necessity
There is a song......I&#039;m So Vain...Carly Simon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t have a college degree.Nor does she. Does that mean we are stupid? To people that believe a college degree is a necessity<br />
There is a song&#8230;&#8230;I&#8217;m So Vain&#8230;Carly Simon.</p>
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		<title>By: Lifestyle Philosopher</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/01/swinger-trends.html#comment-442157</link>
		<dc:creator>Lifestyle Philosopher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Feb 2010 01:25:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=21680#comment-442157</guid>
		<description>If you are looking for literature references from studies to support that claim, then no.  I am sure there has not been a population study where someone attempted to determine the strength of the bond between partners based on the openness of their relationship.  To explain how I have come to that conclusion would take more time than I care to give, but here are the bullet points of my credentials:

- Intimate exposure to large sample group throughout the US.
- Ability, via internet, to dialog with many different sub-categories of people on the subject.  These categories include age, race, and religion.
- Plus my advantage of not always being a swinger, and therefore having a solid understanding of the psyche of both groups, allows me to better evaluate the subject.  

Bottom line, if you need a double-blind study from a non-biased team of experts to accept the idea that couples without jealousy in their relationship (swingers) will have a better chance of staying together than those who more often do (monogamous partners), then I am not smart enough to help you understand the lifestyle any better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you are looking for literature references from studies to support that claim, then no.  I am sure there has not been a population study where someone attempted to determine the strength of the bond between partners based on the openness of their relationship.  To explain how I have come to that conclusion would take more time than I care to give, but here are the bullet points of my credentials:</p>
<p>- Intimate exposure to large sample group throughout the US.<br />
- Ability, via internet, to dialog with many different sub-categories of people on the subject.  These categories include age, race, and religion.<br />
- Plus my advantage of not always being a swinger, and therefore having a solid understanding of the psyche of both groups, allows me to better evaluate the subject.  </p>
<p>Bottom line, if you need a double-blind study from a non-biased team of experts to accept the idea that couples without jealousy in their relationship (swingers) will have a better chance of staying together than those who more often do (monogamous partners), then I am not smart enough to help you understand the lifestyle any better.</p>
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		<title>By: anon</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/01/swinger-trends.html#comment-442141</link>
		<dc:creator>anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 19:57:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=21680#comment-442141</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;However, lifetime partners who participate in the swinging lifestyle tend to share a bond that is more fulfilling and stronger than most “vanilla” couples.&lt;/i&gt;

Do you have any references to support this?  Anecdotal reports are not enough, since they may be affected by selection bias.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>However, lifetime partners who participate in the swinging lifestyle tend to share a bond that is more fulfilling and stronger than most “vanilla” couples.</i></p>
<p>Do you have any references to support this?  Anecdotal reports are not enough, since they may be affected by selection bias.</p>
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		<title>By: Lifestyle Philosopher</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/01/swinger-trends.html#comment-442113</link>
		<dc:creator>Lifestyle Philosopher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 15:52:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=21680#comment-442113</guid>
		<description>It would seem that the majority of your approaches to this &quot;phenomenon&quot; are biased with a negative implication that the act of swinging is &quot;deviant&quot;.  Here are some things to consider for future evaluation of the swinging lifestyle that may produce more accurate (and less confusing) results.

1) While it may be true that a small portion of the swinger community is involved for reasons not totally clear to both parties (i.e. woman wants to be with other men, so she convinces husband to swing), the ultimate reasons for an open relationship of this nature are vast and loosely connected.  However, lifetime partners who participate in the swinging lifestyle tend to share a bond that is more fulfilling and stronger than most “vanilla” couples.  This is because they transcend the issues of jealousy and ownership of each other, and instead give to one another the gift of freedom to choose.  
2) MF, FF, and MM who open their relationship to others should be the only true definition of &quot;swingers&quot; for the purpose of studying this lifestyle.  Single males and females are simply components with individual motivations not necessarily connected to &quot;swinging.&quot;
3) Trends, as you have called it, are not so easily measured by even studying a large population.  This is because each individual has their own preferences, each couple has their agreed upon limits, and each group has their own collective standards.  Plus, if you only look back 25 years, then your conclusions would be similarly misguided as if you were to take the weather patterns of the past 25 years to define global climate patterns.    
4) To refer to women who enjoy swinging and sex with multiple partners as &quot;slutty&quot; demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of human nature and known concepts of evolutionary-based sexual behaviors.  As for a woman that enjoys multiple men at the same time, I wonder if this is as hard to understand as a man who would enjoy multiple women at the same time.  One simple psychological explanation would be the need (and erotic desire) for attention.
5) To a much less important point, the prices listed above are not common.  Females tend to have free admission or a relatively low price, MF couples are charged a cost relative to the party venue, and single males are charged a premium.  This is because most females of a swinging couple are bisexual and therefore both members of the couple can be sexually attracted to, and share, the same female (which is not nearly as common with single males.)

I hope these points are helpful in your understanding of the swinging lifestyle.  While the choice to have an open relationship may not be as common as monogamy, it definitely is common enough to command the respect of others as a lifestyle that is healthy and fulfilling.  In the future please consider this for all walks of life: Conviction without knowledge is the most dangerous form of ignorance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would seem that the majority of your approaches to this &#8220;phenomenon&#8221; are biased with a negative implication that the act of swinging is &#8220;deviant&#8221;.  Here are some things to consider for future evaluation of the swinging lifestyle that may produce more accurate (and less confusing) results.</p>
<p>1) While it may be true that a small portion of the swinger community is involved for reasons not totally clear to both parties (i.e. woman wants to be with other men, so she convinces husband to swing), the ultimate reasons for an open relationship of this nature are vast and loosely connected.  However, lifetime partners who participate in the swinging lifestyle tend to share a bond that is more fulfilling and stronger than most “vanilla” couples.  This is because they transcend the issues of jealousy and ownership of each other, and instead give to one another the gift of freedom to choose.<br />
2) MF, FF, and MM who open their relationship to others should be the only true definition of &#8220;swingers&#8221; for the purpose of studying this lifestyle.  Single males and females are simply components with individual motivations not necessarily connected to &#8220;swinging.&#8221;<br />
3) Trends, as you have called it, are not so easily measured by even studying a large population.  This is because each individual has their own preferences, each couple has their agreed upon limits, and each group has their own collective standards.  Plus, if you only look back 25 years, then your conclusions would be similarly misguided as if you were to take the weather patterns of the past 25 years to define global climate patterns.<br />
4) To refer to women who enjoy swinging and sex with multiple partners as &#8220;slutty&#8221; demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of human nature and known concepts of evolutionary-based sexual behaviors.  As for a woman that enjoys multiple men at the same time, I wonder if this is as hard to understand as a man who would enjoy multiple women at the same time.  One simple psychological explanation would be the need (and erotic desire) for attention.<br />
5) To a much less important point, the prices listed above are not common.  Females tend to have free admission or a relatively low price, MF couples are charged a cost relative to the party venue, and single males are charged a premium.  This is because most females of a swinging couple are bisexual and therefore both members of the couple can be sexually attracted to, and share, the same female (which is not nearly as common with single males.)</p>
<p>I hope these points are helpful in your understanding of the swinging lifestyle.  While the choice to have an open relationship may not be as common as monogamy, it definitely is common enough to command the respect of others as a lifestyle that is healthy and fulfilling.  In the future please consider this for all walks of life: Conviction without knowledge is the most dangerous form of ignorance.</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/01/swinger-trends.html#comment-442066</link>
		<dc:creator>Anthony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 00:17:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=21680#comment-442066</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s an obvious flaw in the pricing - unless the party organizers know all the attendees, an MFF trio should go in as an MF couple and a single female, and save $5. (An MFF trio and an MMF trio could save $20 by presenting as 3 MF couples.)

I&#039;ve seen similar sorts of arrangements where the implicit price for women was negative.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s an obvious flaw in the pricing &#8211; unless the party organizers know all the attendees, an MFF trio should go in as an MF couple and a single female, and save $5. (An MFF trio and an MMF trio could save $20 by presenting as 3 MF couples.)</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve seen similar sorts of arrangements where the implicit price for women was negative.</p>
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		<title>By: tom</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/01/swinger-trends.html#comment-442037</link>
		<dc:creator>tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 18:59:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=21680#comment-442037</guid>
		<description>Arrested Development on this thread and the NYT article that Mike linked above:

Tobias: You know, Lindsay, as a therapist, I have advised...a number of couples to explore an open relationship where the couple remains emotionally committed, but free to explore extra-marital encounters.
Lindsay: Well, did it work for those people?
Tobias: No, it never does. I mean, these people somehow delude themselves into thinking it might, but... but it might work for us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Arrested Development on this thread and the NYT article that Mike linked above:</p>
<p>Tobias: You know, Lindsay, as a therapist, I have advised&#8230;a number of couples to explore an open relationship where the couple remains emotionally committed, but free to explore extra-marital encounters.<br />
Lindsay: Well, did it work for those people?<br />
Tobias: No, it never does. I mean, these people somehow delude themselves into thinking it might, but&#8230; but it might work for us.</p>
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		<title>By: Sub Specie AEternitatis</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/01/swinger-trends.html#comment-441877</link>
		<dc:creator>Sub Specie AEternitatis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jan 2010 16:16:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=21680#comment-441877</guid>
		<description>I am surprised that nobody noticed that arbitrage opportunity inherent in that price structure: Any group of two females and one male wishing to participate should, for purposes of admission, separate in one male-female &quot;couple&quot; and one &quot;single&quot; female and save $5 ($120-$90-$25).  How this consumer (?) surplus is to be allocated is left as an exercise to the reader.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am surprised that nobody noticed that arbitrage opportunity inherent in that price structure: Any group of two females and one male wishing to participate should, for purposes of admission, separate in one male-female &#8220;couple&#8221; and one &#8220;single&#8221; female and save $5 ($120-$90-$25).  How this consumer (?) surplus is to be allocated is left as an exercise to the reader.</p>
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		<title>By: Linkage is Good for You: Leaner, Meaner Edition &#124; In Mala Fide</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/01/swinger-trends.html#comment-441865</link>
		<dc:creator>Linkage is Good for You: Leaner, Meaner Edition &#124; In Mala Fide</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jan 2010 11:36:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=21680#comment-441865</guid>
		<description>[...] Robin Hanson &#8211; &#8220;Swinger Trends&#8221; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Robin Hanson &#8211; &#8220;Swinger Trends&#8221; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/01/swinger-trends.html#comment-441827</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jan 2010 00:45:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=21680#comment-441827</guid>
		<description>Two documentaries: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1058058/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;American Swing&lt;/a&gt; (2008) and &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0304692/externalreviews&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Sex with Strangers&lt;/a&gt; (2002).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two documentaries: <a href="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1058058/" rel="nofollow">American Swing</a> (2008) and <a href="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0304692/externalreviews" rel="nofollow">Sex with Strangers</a> (2002).</p>
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		<title>By: Violet</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2010/01/swinger-trends.html#comment-441825</link>
		<dc:creator>Violet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jan 2010 00:18:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=21680#comment-441825</guid>
		<description>If you are analyzing it terms of markets the modelling hetero/bisexuality in a sensible way will probably be important.

Also the age-distribution of swingers has changed during the last decades (iirc, don&#039;t have a source) which may also lead to the changes observed.

The medium-age in the italian study was 40...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you are analyzing it terms of markets the modelling hetero/bisexuality in a sensible way will probably be important.</p>
<p>Also the age-distribution of swingers has changed during the last decades (iirc, don&#8217;t have a source) which may also lead to the changes observed.</p>
<p>The medium-age in the italian study was 40&#8230;</p>
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