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	<title>Comments on: Sports Signals</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/11/sports-signals.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: dhill</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/11/sports-signals.html#comment-435674</link>
		<dc:creator>dhill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 18:19:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20308#comment-435674</guid>
		<description>They brag, because they are less impressive. Anyway, that&#039;s a matter of perception.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They brag, because they are less impressive. Anyway, that&#8217;s a matter of perception.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Wiblin</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/11/sports-signals.html#comment-435668</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Wiblin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 15:30:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20308#comment-435668</guid>
		<description>Why do the sports players brag if it makes them less impressive?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why do the sports players brag if it makes them less impressive?</p>
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		<title>By: Psychohistorian</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/11/sports-signals.html#comment-435602</link>
		<dc:creator>Psychohistorian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 23:29:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20308#comment-435602</guid>
		<description>&quot;If we wanted, we could ban anyone from ever having a smug grin, or ever saying anything negative about anyone within earshot.&quot;

Yeah, we couldn&#039;t actually do this. Enforcement would be a wee bit difficult and expensive. Not to mention you&#039;d have to repeal the first amendment. But even if there were no direct legal barriers, it just wouldn&#039;t be enforced unless it were already overwhelmingly popular, which is too counterfactual to be useful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If we wanted, we could ban anyone from ever having a smug grin, or ever saying anything negative about anyone within earshot.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yeah, we couldn&#8217;t actually do this. Enforcement would be a wee bit difficult and expensive. Not to mention you&#8217;d have to repeal the first amendment. But even if there were no direct legal barriers, it just wouldn&#8217;t be enforced unless it were already overwhelmingly popular, which is too counterfactual to be useful.</p>
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		<title>By: agnostic</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/11/sports-signals.html#comment-435599</link>
		<dc:creator>agnostic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:49:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20308#comment-435599</guid>
		<description>Not sure that the ban reflects what the fans want -- if they wanted to see athletes look impressive by restraining themselves when the urge to brag is strong, then legislating no bragging defeats the purpose. When players are free to brag, not bragging is a signal of impressiveness; when players are required not to brag, not bragging is a signal of compliance with silly little rules. It goes from ennobling to emasculating.

I think most fans would see the logic there, so it&#039;s more likely one of these ditches that the regulators have to dig in order to feel like their life has a point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not sure that the ban reflects what the fans want &#8212; if they wanted to see athletes look impressive by restraining themselves when the urge to brag is strong, then legislating no bragging defeats the purpose. When players are free to brag, not bragging is a signal of impressiveness; when players are required not to brag, not bragging is a signal of compliance with silly little rules. It goes from ennobling to emasculating.</p>
<p>I think most fans would see the logic there, so it&#8217;s more likely one of these ditches that the regulators have to dig in order to feel like their life has a point.</p>
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		<title>By: gwern</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/11/sports-signals.html#comment-435598</link>
		<dc:creator>gwern</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:33:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20308#comment-435598</guid>
		<description>We ban people from gestures, from speech, from gang colors, from all sorts of things based on the context. Why might we ban gestures &amp; taunting at sports events?

It probably has something to do with how people are at their most bestial &amp; mindlessly aggressive &amp; moblike at sporting events.

Consider the Football War (&gt;3k deaths), or the Heysel Stadium disaster (39 dead, 600 injured), or the Hillsborough Disaster (96 dead, 766 injured), or...

Well, you can look at https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/List_of_violent_spectator_incidents_in_sports or https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Category:Violence_in_sports or https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Football_hooliganism or https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Violence_in_sports if the topic interests you.

And on the topic of banning gestures and other incitements to fight, here are some random examples:

http://jonathanturley.org/2008/03/05/north-carolina-officer-stops-bus-and-arrests-kids-for-making-faces-and-obscene-gestures-at-him/
http://www2.dothaneagle.com/dea/news/crime_courts/article/dothan_man_faces_felony_charge_after_giving_deputy_the_middle_finger/75772/
http://dawgguide.onlineathens.com/stories/082208/cop_321591128.shtml
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/06/19/1023864454682.html
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90779/90871/6544913_txt.html (notice this one was literally just pointing a finger)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We ban people from gestures, from speech, from gang colors, from all sorts of things based on the context. Why might we ban gestures &amp; taunting at sports events?</p>
<p>It probably has something to do with how people are at their most bestial &amp; mindlessly aggressive &amp; moblike at sporting events.</p>
<p>Consider the Football War (&gt;3k deaths), or the Heysel Stadium disaster (39 dead, 600 injured), or the Hillsborough Disaster (96 dead, 766 injured), or&#8230;</p>
<p>Well, you can look at <a href="https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/List_of_violent_spectator_incidents_in_sports" rel="nofollow">https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/List_of_violent_spectator_incidents_in_sports</a> or <a href="https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Category:Violence_in_sports" rel="nofollow">https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Category:Violence_in_sports</a> or <a href="https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Football_hooliganism" rel="nofollow">https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Football_hooliganism</a> or <a href="https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Violence_in_sports" rel="nofollow">https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Violence_in_sports</a> if the topic interests you.</p>
<p>And on the topic of banning gestures and other incitements to fight, here are some random examples:</p>
<p><a href="http://jonathanturley.org/2008/03/05/north-carolina-officer-stops-bus-and-arrests-kids-for-making-faces-and-obscene-gestures-at-him/" rel="nofollow">http://jonathanturley.org/2008/03/05/north-carolina-officer-stops-bus-and-arrests-kids-for-making-faces-and-obscene-gestures-at-him/</a><br />
<a href="http://www2.dothaneagle.com/dea/news/crime_courts/article/dothan_man_faces_felony_charge_after_giving_deputy_the_middle_finger/75772/" rel="nofollow">http://www2.dothaneagle.com/dea/news/crime_courts/article/dothan_man_faces_felony_charge_after_giving_deputy_the_middle_finger/75772/</a><br />
<a href="http://dawgguide.onlineathens.com/stories/082208/cop_321591128.shtml" rel="nofollow">http://dawgguide.onlineathens.com/stories/082208/cop_321591128.shtml</a><br />
<a href="http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/06/19/1023864454682.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/06/19/1023864454682.html</a><br />
<a href="http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90779/90871/6544913_txt.html" rel="nofollow">http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90001/90779/90871/6544913_txt.html</a> (notice this one was literally just pointing a finger)</p>
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		<title>By: Chuck</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/11/sports-signals.html#comment-435587</link>
		<dc:creator>Chuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:53:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20308#comment-435587</guid>
		<description>It can sometimes be hard to distinguish taunting from celebrating.

Given the use of the word &quot;excessive&quot; I think (originally at least) the rational was not to ban endzone celebrations, but celebrations that might border on or cross over into taunting. In the meantime, it seems that maybe everyone involved just doesn&#039;t want to get caught up in legalisms and just basically banned it outright?

I&#039;m not up to speed on the state of permissible end zone celebration, but my guess is that it&#039;s gotten too restrictive.

&quot;Why ban fingers at sport events but not the rest?&quot; Outside of private events, expression is a right, and banning smug looks would be unconstitutional. Another aspect to consider is why police will press assault charges against hockey players who fight in a bar but not when they fight on the ice? Social convention I guess?

By way of what spectators want and the financial motivations of the various sports regulating bodies, perhaps the &#039;excessive celebration&#039; is more likely to push away fans of losing teams than it is to attract fans to winning teams.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It can sometimes be hard to distinguish taunting from celebrating.</p>
<p>Given the use of the word &#8220;excessive&#8221; I think (originally at least) the rational was not to ban endzone celebrations, but celebrations that might border on or cross over into taunting. In the meantime, it seems that maybe everyone involved just doesn&#8217;t want to get caught up in legalisms and just basically banned it outright?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not up to speed on the state of permissible end zone celebration, but my guess is that it&#8217;s gotten too restrictive.</p>
<p>&#8220;Why ban fingers at sport events but not the rest?&#8221; Outside of private events, expression is a right, and banning smug looks would be unconstitutional. Another aspect to consider is why police will press assault charges against hockey players who fight in a bar but not when they fight on the ice? Social convention I guess?</p>
<p>By way of what spectators want and the financial motivations of the various sports regulating bodies, perhaps the &#8216;excessive celebration&#8217; is more likely to push away fans of losing teams than it is to attract fans to winning teams.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/11/sports-signals.html#comment-435585</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:34:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20308#comment-435585</guid>
		<description>In most other areas of life we don&#039;t ban people from pointing fingers in the air for fear a fight will break out.  If we wanted, we could ban anyone from ever having a smug grin, or ever saying anything negative about anyone within earshot.  Why ban fingers at sport events but not the rest?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In most other areas of life we don&#8217;t ban people from pointing fingers in the air for fear a fight will break out.  If we wanted, we could ban anyone from ever having a smug grin, or ever saying anything negative about anyone within earshot.  Why ban fingers at sport events but not the rest?</p>
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		<title>By: Chuck</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/11/sports-signals.html#comment-435581</link>
		<dc:creator>Chuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:01:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20308#comment-435581</guid>
		<description>I think the justification is that it prevents fights from breaking out.

&quot;Excessive celebration&quot; I think is (was supposed to be?) a euphemism for taunting.

What is the name for a rule that bans something because it&#039;s too hard to draw the distinction between an acceptable implementation of something (celebration on scoring) vs an unacceptably implementation of something (taunting on scoring)? If it is not named, it ought to be, lots of things in life are like that. I do it every day with my kids (OMG, I&#039;m a fascist!).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the justification is that it prevents fights from breaking out.</p>
<p>&#8220;Excessive celebration&#8221; I think is (was supposed to be?) a euphemism for taunting.</p>
<p>What is the name for a rule that bans something because it&#8217;s too hard to draw the distinction between an acceptable implementation of something (celebration on scoring) vs an unacceptably implementation of something (taunting on scoring)? If it is not named, it ought to be, lots of things in life are like that. I do it every day with my kids (OMG, I&#8217;m a fascist!).</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan Vann</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/11/sports-signals.html#comment-435577</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Vann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 14:01:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20308#comment-435577</guid>
		<description>Call me crazy, but I enjoy over the top, professional wrassling styled entrances, celebrations, and mic work from my athletes; the more creative, the better. It adds a certain element of intrique and larger than life status to the games. Likewise, it makes for great conversation about controversy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Call me crazy, but I enjoy over the top, professional wrassling styled entrances, celebrations, and mic work from my athletes; the more creative, the better. It adds a certain element of intrique and larger than life status to the games. Likewise, it makes for great conversation about controversy.</p>
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		<title>By: Ross Williams</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/11/sports-signals.html#comment-435568</link>
		<dc:creator>Ross Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 08:16:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20308#comment-435568</guid>
		<description>For football, celebration penalties actually started in college football. Of course it doesn&#039;t make the story as nice, so the reporter fudged the facts a bit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For football, celebration penalties actually started in college football. Of course it doesn&#8217;t make the story as nice, so the reporter fudged the facts a bit.</p>
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