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	<title>Comments on: Monogamy Is Human</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/11/humans-hide-fertility.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: Shiraz Allidina</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/11/humans-hide-fertility.html#comment-437420</link>
		<dc:creator>Shiraz Allidina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 00:15:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20534#comment-437420</guid>
		<description>Bigger brain, smaller jaw, loss of canines - I prefer &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/27/books/27garn.html?ref=books&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this guy&#039;s hypothesis.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bigger brain, smaller jaw, loss of canines &#8211; I prefer <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/27/books/27garn.html?ref=books" rel="nofollow">this guy&#8217;s hypothesis.</a></p>
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		<title>By: Monogamy and Human Success &#171; Incredible Wampum</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/11/humans-hide-fertility.html#comment-436972</link>
		<dc:creator>Monogamy and Human Success &#171; Incredible Wampum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 16:10:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20534#comment-436972</guid>
		<description>[...] Make the Best&#160;Parents    Monogamy and Human&#160;Success November 29, 2009   Robin Hanson comments on Monogamy: It easier to maintain pair bonding in larger primate social groups if males can’t [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Make the Best&nbsp;Parents    Monogamy and Human&nbsp;Success November 29, 2009   Robin Hanson comments on Monogamy: It easier to maintain pair bonding in larger primate social groups if males can’t [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jamie_NYC</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/11/humans-hide-fertility.html#comment-436660</link>
		<dc:creator>Jamie_NYC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 02:42:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20534#comment-436660</guid>
		<description>The difference in average sizes of men and women tells us that human species historically was not completely monogamous. The species that are monogamous (&quot;mate for life&quot;), such as wolves, geese etc., have males and females of nearly identical size. The completely polygamous, where the dominant males appropriate &#039;harems&#039;, have vastly different sizes - gorillas are an example. Humans fall somewhere in between the two extremes of complete monogamy and the &#039;harem&#039; arrangement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The difference in average sizes of men and women tells us that human species historically was not completely monogamous. The species that are monogamous (&#8221;mate for life&#8221;), such as wolves, geese etc., have males and females of nearly identical size. The completely polygamous, where the dominant males appropriate &#8216;harems&#8217;, have vastly different sizes &#8211; gorillas are an example. Humans fall somewhere in between the two extremes of complete monogamy and the &#8216;harem&#8217; arrangement.</p>
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		<title>By: AA</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/11/humans-hide-fertility.html#comment-436648</link>
		<dc:creator>AA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 01:02:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20534#comment-436648</guid>
		<description>But I did discuss the dependence on the shape of the demographic distribution! In a 50/50 society monogamy always prevails!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But I did discuss the dependence on the shape of the demographic distribution! In a 50/50 society monogamy always prevails!</p>
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		<title>By: TruePath</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/11/humans-hide-fertility.html#comment-436642</link>
		<dc:creator>TruePath</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 23:31:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20534#comment-436642</guid>
		<description>Uhh, it seems to me this argument is totally backwards.

The reason monogomy is important on your account is because it reduces the level of competition/violence inside a group.  Yet, it seems to be that the reason that (open) non-monogomy is on the rise is largely because the violence has been so effectively controlled.

If we ever start to slide back to a state where men fight duels because someone stole their girlfriend people will return to greater monogomy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Uhh, it seems to me this argument is totally backwards.</p>
<p>The reason monogomy is important on your account is because it reduces the level of competition/violence inside a group.  Yet, it seems to be that the reason that (open) non-monogomy is on the rise is largely because the violence has been so effectively controlled.</p>
<p>If we ever start to slide back to a state where men fight duels because someone stole their girlfriend people will return to greater monogomy.</p>
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		<title>By: Violet</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/11/humans-hide-fertility.html#comment-436616</link>
		<dc:creator>Violet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 21:30:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20534#comment-436616</guid>
		<description>If you are concerned about monogamy and different sexualities than in EEA shouldn&#039;t you be more concerned with contraception? It allows heterosexual sex without babies and thus totally changes the game.

Also don&#039;t most studies point to a direction of monogamous pairing with lots of cheating. Wouldn&#039;t requiring paternity tests also change the game in &quot;unnatural&quot; ways.

If the issue is men ending up single, shouldn&#039;t we promote polyamorous relationships or some form of polyandry?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you are concerned about monogamy and different sexualities than in EEA shouldn&#8217;t you be more concerned with contraception? It allows heterosexual sex without babies and thus totally changes the game.</p>
<p>Also don&#8217;t most studies point to a direction of monogamous pairing with lots of cheating. Wouldn&#8217;t requiring paternity tests also change the game in &#8220;unnatural&#8221; ways.</p>
<p>If the issue is men ending up single, shouldn&#8217;t we promote polyamorous relationships or some form of polyandry?</p>
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		<title>By: baconbacon</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/11/humans-hide-fertility.html#comment-436601</link>
		<dc:creator>baconbacon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 20:08:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20534#comment-436601</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;But is it monogamy as such or stable families? In a sense, if every male know which females are his and which are his neighbour’s that would also make it so much easier to maintain peace and produce the claimed adaptations.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Its many things, but simply having each male know which females are his leads to disaster in a 50/50 male/female population.  Take an extreme example- our society has decided that only men with a net worth of &gt; 10 million dollars can reproduce.  Women may freely choose any man to mate within this group and every other man works to support this situation.  On the surface this seems like a plausible way to select for the traits that make successful individuals- but you get massive gambling addicts in the future.  What happens is that any steady, hard working lower class person has a near zero chance of passing on his genes while his crazy, compulsive gambling neighbor could win the lottery/go on a hot run in vegas/win the trifecta and get to pass his genes along.  Gambling becomes a far better strategy and it gets passed on into the gene pool.

That sounds like a bizarre and unrealistic example- but in a 50/50 society polygamy automatically leaves explicit losers in the gene leaving race (its even worse when males can reproduce indefinitely but women have a cut off point).  If there are 50 males and 50 females and 1 male has 2 wives then 1 male has to have none.  Then that last male has a huge incentive to steal a wife, or murder another man, and those kinds of activities create conflict.  If 1 man has 10 wives then there are 9 buys out there with tons of sexual energy and all the genetic incentive to start murdering/stealing wives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>But is it monogamy as such or stable families? In a sense, if every male know which females are his and which are his neighbour’s that would also make it so much easier to maintain peace and produce the claimed adaptations.</p></blockquote>
<p>Its many things, but simply having each male know which females are his leads to disaster in a 50/50 male/female population.  Take an extreme example- our society has decided that only men with a net worth of &gt; 10 million dollars can reproduce.  Women may freely choose any man to mate within this group and every other man works to support this situation.  On the surface this seems like a plausible way to select for the traits that make successful individuals- but you get massive gambling addicts in the future.  What happens is that any steady, hard working lower class person has a near zero chance of passing on his genes while his crazy, compulsive gambling neighbor could win the lottery/go on a hot run in vegas/win the trifecta and get to pass his genes along.  Gambling becomes a far better strategy and it gets passed on into the gene pool.</p>
<p>That sounds like a bizarre and unrealistic example- but in a 50/50 society polygamy automatically leaves explicit losers in the gene leaving race (its even worse when males can reproduce indefinitely but women have a cut off point).  If there are 50 males and 50 females and 1 male has 2 wives then 1 male has to have none.  Then that last male has a huge incentive to steal a wife, or murder another man, and those kinds of activities create conflict.  If 1 man has 10 wives then there are 9 buys out there with tons of sexual energy and all the genetic incentive to start murdering/stealing wives.</p>
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		<title>By: TGGP</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/11/humans-hide-fertility.html#comment-436599</link>
		<dc:creator>TGGP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 20:03:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20534#comment-436599</guid>
		<description>Actually, as haplodiploids (which gives rise to greater relatedness) &lt;a href=&quot;http://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/2009/08/29/does-diversity-only-make-whites-more-opposed-to-welfare/#comment-4318&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;workers can have male offspring&lt;/a&gt; without being fertilized. This is typically done by descendants of a previous queen who aren&#039;t interested in the general welfare of the colony under the new queen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, as haplodiploids (which gives rise to greater relatedness) <a href="http://entitledtoanopinion.wordpress.com/2009/08/29/does-diversity-only-make-whites-more-opposed-to-welfare/#comment-4318" rel="nofollow">workers can have male offspring</a> without being fertilized. This is typically done by descendants of a previous queen who aren&#8217;t interested in the general welfare of the colony under the new queen.</p>
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		<title>By: Anon</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/11/humans-hide-fertility.html#comment-436594</link>
		<dc:creator>Anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 19:37:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Please don&#039;t mix fats and sugars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please don&#8217;t mix fats and sugars.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin Martyr</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/11/humans-hide-fertility.html#comment-436587</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Martyr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Nov 2009 19:06:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20534#comment-436587</guid>
		<description>I understand what you are saying about the group level of selection and in theory it could work. But bonobos, like all promiscuous species, have a high reproductive skew in males. That means that bonobo males generally direct their energies to keeping low status males away from females. Meanwhile low status males direct their energies to sneaking around and finding a female on the sly.

Ants and other eusocial species have an even higher reproductive skew. But they are true group selectionists with separate reproductive and working castes. Workers in a eusocial species have no option of diverting energy into the reproductive arena. Thus they work hard for the group because all other choices have essentially been permanently removed from the table.

Monogamy is a different (and more egalitarian) method of accomplishing the same goal. They both have very strong &lt;i&gt;ex ante&lt;/i&gt; boundaries of reproductive access. For members of a working caste in a eusocial species the boundary is &quot;you will never reproduce&quot;. For monogamy the boundary is one partner. But either way, if these &lt;i&gt;ex ante&lt;/i&gt; boundaries are strong then people will work at the group level rather than becoming status-seeking free riders.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand what you are saying about the group level of selection and in theory it could work. But bonobos, like all promiscuous species, have a high reproductive skew in males. That means that bonobo males generally direct their energies to keeping low status males away from females. Meanwhile low status males direct their energies to sneaking around and finding a female on the sly.</p>
<p>Ants and other eusocial species have an even higher reproductive skew. But they are true group selectionists with separate reproductive and working castes. Workers in a eusocial species have no option of diverting energy into the reproductive arena. Thus they work hard for the group because all other choices have essentially been permanently removed from the table.</p>
<p>Monogamy is a different (and more egalitarian) method of accomplishing the same goal. They both have very strong <i>ex ante</i> boundaries of reproductive access. For members of a working caste in a eusocial species the boundary is &#8220;you will never reproduce&#8221;. For monogamy the boundary is one partner. But either way, if these <i>ex ante</i> boundaries are strong then people will work at the group level rather than becoming status-seeking free riders.</p>
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