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	<title>Comments on: What Is &#8220;Personal&#8221;?</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/10/what-is-personal.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: Carinthium</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/10/what-is-personal.html#comment-461101</link>
		<dc:creator>Carinthium</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Dec 2010 08:51:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Marriage isn&#039;t just a financial arrangement- it&#039;s also an agreement to have and raise children.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marriage isn&#8217;t just a financial arrangement- it&#8217;s also an agreement to have and raise children.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug Rogers</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/10/what-is-personal.html#comment-434756</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug Rogers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 22:31:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20095#comment-434756</guid>
		<description>&quot;If we were to apply the unmodified, uncurbed, rules of the micro-cosmos (i.e., of the small band or troop, or of, say, our families) to the macro-cosmos (our wider civilization), as our instincts and sentimental yearnings often make us wish to do, we would destroy it. Yet if we were always to apply the rules of the extended order to our more intimate groupings, we would crush them. So we must learn to live in two sorts of worlds at once.&quot;

~F.A. Hayek

The Fatal Conceit</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If we were to apply the unmodified, uncurbed, rules of the micro-cosmos (i.e., of the small band or troop, or of, say, our families) to the macro-cosmos (our wider civilization), as our instincts and sentimental yearnings often make us wish to do, we would destroy it. Yet if we were always to apply the rules of the extended order to our more intimate groupings, we would crush them. So we must learn to live in two sorts of worlds at once.&#8221;</p>
<p>~F.A. Hayek</p>
<p>The Fatal Conceit</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Armstrong</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/10/what-is-personal.html#comment-434730</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Armstrong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 09:14:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20095#comment-434730</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;My tentative theory: our ancestors had different social norms for “personal” within-tribe versus “impersonal” between-tribe behavior.  When you interacted with someone from another tribe, you had to be more careful to be neutral and inoffensive, since your whole tribe might suffer if you offended someone.&lt;/em&gt;

If that were the explanation, you&#039;d expect more of a continuous thread throughout human history. Instead, many traditional societies did (and do) enforce laws or norms on what we think of as &quot;personal&quot; behaviour.

I feel the distinction is a much more modern development, linked with the rise of personal autonomy ideas. If we&#039;re looking for an evolutionary trait that got co-opted into this cultural development, I think the most likely candidate is leadership. Leaders have a distinct seperation between their business role (I do this for all of you) and their personal role (I do this for myself). The led will pressure leaders to act in &lt;em&gt;their &lt;/em&gt;best interest; leaders demand the right to look for themselves somewhat. A leader&#039;s life torn between these tendencies will naturally develop &quot;business&quot; and &quot;personal&quot; spheres of action.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>My tentative theory: our ancestors had different social norms for “personal” within-tribe versus “impersonal” between-tribe behavior.  When you interacted with someone from another tribe, you had to be more careful to be neutral and inoffensive, since your whole tribe might suffer if you offended someone.</em></p>
<p>If that were the explanation, you&#8217;d expect more of a continuous thread throughout human history. Instead, many traditional societies did (and do) enforce laws or norms on what we think of as &#8220;personal&#8221; behaviour.</p>
<p>I feel the distinction is a much more modern development, linked with the rise of personal autonomy ideas. If we&#8217;re looking for an evolutionary trait that got co-opted into this cultural development, I think the most likely candidate is leadership. Leaders have a distinct seperation between their business role (I do this for all of you) and their personal role (I do this for myself). The led will pressure leaders to act in <em>their </em>best interest; leaders demand the right to look for themselves somewhat. A leader&#8217;s life torn between these tendencies will naturally develop &#8220;business&#8221; and &#8220;personal&#8221; spheres of action.</p>
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		<title>By: adam</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/10/what-is-personal.html#comment-434706</link>
		<dc:creator>adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 21:24:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20095#comment-434706</guid>
		<description>Yeah it seems like &quot;it&#039;s personal&quot; means the person will go through a potentially costly defense of their personal status, rather than just seeking a profitable defense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah it seems like &#8220;it&#8217;s personal&#8221; means the person will go through a potentially costly defense of their personal status, rather than just seeking a profitable defense.</p>
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		<title>By: Psychohistorian</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/10/what-is-personal.html#comment-434674</link>
		<dc:creator>Psychohistorian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 01:34:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20095#comment-434674</guid>
		<description>Don&#039;t think the personal/impersonal mechanism really applies in that example. It&#039;s a question of how explicitly he employs his racism. Anyone might give their fortune to their children. It&#039;s also quite reasonable to give it out to ones friend&#039;s and family. But to give it out to every random white person you meet is unusual, and explicitly employs a racist mechanism. Applying an explicit race filter, or an arbitrary but race-based filter, seems to be the problem more than any personal/impersonal distinction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t think the personal/impersonal mechanism really applies in that example. It&#8217;s a question of how explicitly he employs his racism. Anyone might give their fortune to their children. It&#8217;s also quite reasonable to give it out to ones friend&#8217;s and family. But to give it out to every random white person you meet is unusual, and explicitly employs a racist mechanism. Applying an explicit race filter, or an arbitrary but race-based filter, seems to be the problem more than any personal/impersonal distinction.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/10/what-is-personal.html#comment-434665</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 23:15:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20095#comment-434665</guid>
		<description>I would say one difference is that institutions have significantly more power in society than individuals, and people want that power to be used in accordance with social values.  

However I think the personal/impersonal gut instinct plays a major role.  Consider for instance a racist multi-billionaire.  If he gives his many billions to his son, who is white like him, no one cares.  If he gives a million to each of his many friends and acquaintances, who are all white because he is racist, then some people will be disgusted.  If every time he goes out he gives a thousand dollars to everyone he meets, so long as they are not black, I think there would be even greater outrage.

What&#039;s happening is his interactions are becoming increasingly impersonal.  Also, there is a sense in which he is expanding his power, as his actions seemingly directly influence a larger number of people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would say one difference is that institutions have significantly more power in society than individuals, and people want that power to be used in accordance with social values.  </p>
<p>However I think the personal/impersonal gut instinct plays a major role.  Consider for instance a racist multi-billionaire.  If he gives his many billions to his son, who is white like him, no one cares.  If he gives a million to each of his many friends and acquaintances, who are all white because he is racist, then some people will be disgusted.  If every time he goes out he gives a thousand dollars to everyone he meets, so long as they are not black, I think there would be even greater outrage.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s happening is his interactions are becoming increasingly impersonal.  Also, there is a sense in which he is expanding his power, as his actions seemingly directly influence a larger number of people.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/10/what-is-personal.html#comment-434663</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 22:44:31 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I like this if only because I think people underestimate the value of trust to economic development.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like this if only because I think people underestimate the value of trust to economic development.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Johnson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/10/what-is-personal.html#comment-434662</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 22:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20095#comment-434662</guid>
		<description>I think &quot;it&#039;s just business&quot; seeks to assuage maladaptive status anxieties. In a private deal, you might be pointing out that the transaction has no effect on the other person&#039;s status in a semi-anonymous society because no one will know about it; you are just trying to drive a hard bargain and if the person was smart they would lay aside misplaced status concerns and just be homo economicus. Their genome may think they are in a highly &quot;nonymous&quot; society where they are going to lose face and look somewhat subordinate if they compromise with you.

That is, if people actually say this in business. I have no experience there. I primarily think of this phrase as something people say in gangster movies when they&#039;re about to waste somebody.

Of course, our society is not totally anonymous, and driving a weak bargain may in fact hurt one&#039;s status sometimes - it&#039;s just not as common or salient as one&#039;s archaic instincts probably think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think &#8220;it&#8217;s just business&#8221; seeks to assuage maladaptive status anxieties. In a private deal, you might be pointing out that the transaction has no effect on the other person&#8217;s status in a semi-anonymous society because no one will know about it; you are just trying to drive a hard bargain and if the person was smart they would lay aside misplaced status concerns and just be homo economicus. Their genome may think they are in a highly &#8220;nonymous&#8221; society where they are going to lose face and look somewhat subordinate if they compromise with you.</p>
<p>That is, if people actually say this in business. I have no experience there. I primarily think of this phrase as something people say in gangster movies when they&#8217;re about to waste somebody.</p>
<p>Of course, our society is not totally anonymous, and driving a weak bargain may in fact hurt one&#8217;s status sometimes &#8211; it&#8217;s just not as common or salient as one&#8217;s archaic instincts probably think.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Johnson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/10/what-is-personal.html#comment-434661</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 21:54:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20095#comment-434661</guid>
		<description>Robin, I recently finished Chagnon&#039;s Yanomamo ethnology - my first ethnology. You might enjoy it. For one thing, he was with a Yanomamo party who traveled to another village to open the path to an alliance. The two villages had been bitter enemies with mutual raiding for ~20 years, but changing patterns of politics and war made it advantageous for them to come together. The diplomatic process was very complex and cagey, and the sojourning diplomatic party faced a significant risk of being massacred. 

Anyway, despite his cordial feelings for his Yanomamo friends and his appreciation of the situation&#039;s gravity, Chagnon almost cracked up when they started gingerly conversing about aspects of their past conflict in totally fallacious ways, exaggerating and lying their way to a new consensus truth about how neither village could really be blamed for their conflict, especially considering how perfidy by other (hostile) villages contributed to the whole thing.

Hey anyone, what ethnology should I read next?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin, I recently finished Chagnon&#8217;s Yanomamo ethnology &#8211; my first ethnology. You might enjoy it. For one thing, he was with a Yanomamo party who traveled to another village to open the path to an alliance. The two villages had been bitter enemies with mutual raiding for ~20 years, but changing patterns of politics and war made it advantageous for them to come together. The diplomatic process was very complex and cagey, and the sojourning diplomatic party faced a significant risk of being massacred. </p>
<p>Anyway, despite his cordial feelings for his Yanomamo friends and his appreciation of the situation&#8217;s gravity, Chagnon almost cracked up when they started gingerly conversing about aspects of their past conflict in totally fallacious ways, exaggerating and lying their way to a new consensus truth about how neither village could really be blamed for their conflict, especially considering how perfidy by other (hostile) villages contributed to the whole thing.</p>
<p>Hey anyone, what ethnology should I read next?</p>
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		<title>By: Psychohistorian</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/10/what-is-personal.html#comment-434660</link>
		<dc:creator>Psychohistorian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 21:26:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20095#comment-434660</guid>
		<description>&quot;Marriage is primarily a financial arrangement.&quot;

Marriage was primarily a financial arrangement in past centuries. It is not currently seen as being primarily a financial arrangement. Yes, finances definitely play an important role. Yes, marriage does grant a large number of financial privileges and obligations. But when you ask people who they want to marry, you will generally not hear, &quot;Whatever person I would make the most money by marrying.&quot; When you ask people the reason they get married, they do not say, &quot;To make more money.&quot; Your statement is simply wrong.

I don&#039;t really see how attorney conflicts of interest are relevant. Your example is too brief and vague for me to rebut.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Marriage is primarily a financial arrangement.&#8221;</p>
<p>Marriage was primarily a financial arrangement in past centuries. It is not currently seen as being primarily a financial arrangement. Yes, finances definitely play an important role. Yes, marriage does grant a large number of financial privileges and obligations. But when you ask people who they want to marry, you will generally not hear, &#8220;Whatever person I would make the most money by marrying.&#8221; When you ask people the reason they get married, they do not say, &#8220;To make more money.&#8221; Your statement is simply wrong.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t really see how attorney conflicts of interest are relevant. Your example is too brief and vague for me to rebut.</p>
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