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	<title>Comments on: Bad News On Human Extinction</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/10/bad-news-on-human-extinction.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: Granite26</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/10/bad-news-on-human-extinction.html#comment-435271</link>
		<dc:creator>Granite26</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 18:02:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20163#comment-435271</guid>
		<description>It feels like that is missing a lot of post disaster environments(A),  the possibility of a concerted human repopulation effort(B), and the dispersal of the remaining population(C).

(A) are we talking fast acting virus leaving the infrastructure largely intact, large scale eco-geologic disaster (earthquakes and volcanoes) or a climate change scenario that causes mass starvation (meteor strike, ice age, global warming induced wastelands, nuclear winter)

The resources left behind will drastically affect survival, as will the efficacy of further farming effects.

(B) Assuming that most people are dead and that rice/wheat/potatoes are still viable staple crops, there would likely be huge surpluses for the forseeable future.  We aren&#039;t talking about hunter gatherers on marginal lands, we&#039;re talking about a group of people with their choice of the best soils in the world, along with an unprecidented repopulation of wildlife (game).  Human intelligence being what it is, that surplus could be intelligently used to support ridiculously high breeding rates.  (This also gets into the alpha/beta discussions.  Doesn&#039;t MVP include basic assumptions on who&#039;s breeding with who in the wild?  There wouldn&#039;t necessarily be any &#039;wild&#039; in this scenario.)

(C) It&#039;s possible to put 4000 people on the planet such that none of them would ever see another living soul again.  On the other hand, 4000 survivors of the apocalypse could all be in a single place (say, Cheyenne Mountain).  The import thing is that the population needs to be close enough to interbreed.  Either way, unless there are piles of bodies left, disease basically goes away, which is another problem with using modern hunter/gatherer lifespans.

In short, wouldn&#039;t genetics be all that mattered?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It feels like that is missing a lot of post disaster environments(A),  the possibility of a concerted human repopulation effort(B), and the dispersal of the remaining population(C).</p>
<p>(A) are we talking fast acting virus leaving the infrastructure largely intact, large scale eco-geologic disaster (earthquakes and volcanoes) or a climate change scenario that causes mass starvation (meteor strike, ice age, global warming induced wastelands, nuclear winter)</p>
<p>The resources left behind will drastically affect survival, as will the efficacy of further farming effects.</p>
<p>(B) Assuming that most people are dead and that rice/wheat/potatoes are still viable staple crops, there would likely be huge surpluses for the forseeable future.  We aren&#8217;t talking about hunter gatherers on marginal lands, we&#8217;re talking about a group of people with their choice of the best soils in the world, along with an unprecidented repopulation of wildlife (game).  Human intelligence being what it is, that surplus could be intelligently used to support ridiculously high breeding rates.  (This also gets into the alpha/beta discussions.  Doesn&#8217;t MVP include basic assumptions on who&#8217;s breeding with who in the wild?  There wouldn&#8217;t necessarily be any &#8216;wild&#8217; in this scenario.)</p>
<p>(C) It&#8217;s possible to put 4000 people on the planet such that none of them would ever see another living soul again.  On the other hand, 4000 survivors of the apocalypse could all be in a single place (say, Cheyenne Mountain).  The import thing is that the population needs to be close enough to interbreed.  Either way, unless there are piles of bodies left, disease basically goes away, which is another problem with using modern hunter/gatherer lifespans.</p>
<p>In short, wouldn&#8217;t genetics be all that mattered?</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/10/bad-news-on-human-extinction.html#comment-435227</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 02:59:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20163#comment-435227</guid>
		<description>Great work; I hope you publish it when you think it ready. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great work; I hope you publish it when you think it ready. <img src='http://www.overcomingbias.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Anders Sandberg</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/10/bad-news-on-human-extinction.html#comment-435220</link>
		<dc:creator>Anders Sandberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 23:12:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20163#comment-435220</guid>
		<description>The Traill paper seems to support a rough consensus in the MVP literature that for mammals the MVP is on the order of thousands. It is not that surprising - humans are large mammals with slow maturation, single births and long generation times.

I tried my hand at doing a bit of MVP for humans after discussing the issue with Robin. My estimates also ran in the thousands. The survival probability is roughly linear in initial population up to several thousand. To get 90% survival after 1000 years (more sensible than 100 for long-lived humans) with life tables corresponding to modern Sri Lanka I needed around 4500 people in the initial group. Adding occasional bad years (a 1/15 chance that a year had double mortality, and 1/150 that it had ten times mortality) reduced the survival probability to ~50% even with 5000 people. Running a low-mortality life table based on modern Sweden made things slightly better, ~60%.

My model did not take genetics into account, so it should be regarded as optimistic. I also had serious problems getting any survival with hunter-gatherer life tables, unless I tweaked them. Boosting average growth rate to 2% produced a MVP of a ~500 people - but that presupposes a very benign environment, not a likely occurence after a global disaster. 

One interesting observation was that even a doomed population can linger for centuries. Conversely, small founder populations for isolated locations may be due to luck: we do not see any genetic traces of the unlucky ones, only the first population to by chance grow far enough to dominate the land.

If we are in the roughly linear survival probability range the chance of a population of size N surviving is kN. If we have N0 people divided into R refuges, each refuge has a chance kN0/R of succeeding. The probability that at least one refuge survives is 1-(1-kN0/R)^R. Given these curves a typical value for k is around 1/10000, I end up with a monotonously decreasing survival probability with R: it is smarter to have one big refuge than many small and vulnerable. However, a proper model would include the risk of local disasters which I think will improve the chances for distributed refuges. But in any case, this is a nice example of how even humans are vulnerable to habitat fragmentation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Traill paper seems to support a rough consensus in the MVP literature that for mammals the MVP is on the order of thousands. It is not that surprising &#8211; humans are large mammals with slow maturation, single births and long generation times.</p>
<p>I tried my hand at doing a bit of MVP for humans after discussing the issue with Robin. My estimates also ran in the thousands. The survival probability is roughly linear in initial population up to several thousand. To get 90% survival after 1000 years (more sensible than 100 for long-lived humans) with life tables corresponding to modern Sri Lanka I needed around 4500 people in the initial group. Adding occasional bad years (a 1/15 chance that a year had double mortality, and 1/150 that it had ten times mortality) reduced the survival probability to ~50% even with 5000 people. Running a low-mortality life table based on modern Sweden made things slightly better, ~60%.</p>
<p>My model did not take genetics into account, so it should be regarded as optimistic. I also had serious problems getting any survival with hunter-gatherer life tables, unless I tweaked them. Boosting average growth rate to 2% produced a MVP of a ~500 people &#8211; but that presupposes a very benign environment, not a likely occurence after a global disaster. </p>
<p>One interesting observation was that even a doomed population can linger for centuries. Conversely, small founder populations for isolated locations may be due to luck: we do not see any genetic traces of the unlucky ones, only the first population to by chance grow far enough to dominate the land.</p>
<p>If we are in the roughly linear survival probability range the chance of a population of size N surviving is kN. If we have N0 people divided into R refuges, each refuge has a chance kN0/R of succeeding. The probability that at least one refuge survives is 1-(1-kN0/R)^R. Given these curves a typical value for k is around 1/10000, I end up with a monotonously decreasing survival probability with R: it is smarter to have one big refuge than many small and vulnerable. However, a proper model would include the risk of local disasters which I think will improve the chances for distributed refuges. But in any case, this is a nice example of how even humans are vulnerable to habitat fragmentation.</p>
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		<title>By: Someone from the other side</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/10/bad-news-on-human-extinction.html#comment-435156</link>
		<dc:creator>Someone from the other side</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Oct 2009 08:16:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20163#comment-435156</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;You benefit if you put any value on humans other than yourself, or on anything that is preserved if humanity if preserved.&lt;/blockquote&gt;



I don&#039;t think the first one is necessarily true (except if you qualify it to be any and all humans) but I concede that the second one would be true.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>You benefit if you put any value on humans other than yourself, or on anything that is preserved if humanity if preserved.</p></blockquote>
<p>I don&#8217;t think the first one is necessarily true (except if you qualify it to be any and all humans) but I concede that the second one would be true.</p>
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		<title>By: John Maxwell IV</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/10/bad-news-on-human-extinction.html#comment-435147</link>
		<dc:creator>John Maxwell IV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Oct 2009 06:26:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20163#comment-435147</guid>
		<description>The post is confusing because it looks like Robin means all but **exactly** a thousand humans.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The post is confusing because it looks like Robin means all but **exactly** a thousand humans.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/10/bad-news-on-human-extinction.html#comment-435140</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Oct 2009 02:42:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20163#comment-435140</guid>
		<description>Toby: Absolutely, I do care about more than just myself. But is there a morally relevant boundary whereby caring about humanity at the expense of the rest of the world is justified?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Toby: Absolutely, I do care about more than just myself. But is there a morally relevant boundary whereby caring about humanity at the expense of the rest of the world is justified?</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Silliker</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/10/bad-news-on-human-extinction.html#comment-435127</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Silliker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 17:29:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20163#comment-435127</guid>
		<description>Sound kind&#039;a sneaky does it not?  However, I have to admit that lately I have been feeling kind of cranky.  I think I will try a new deodorant.  I will keep you posted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sound kind&#8217;a sneaky does it not?  However, I have to admit that lately I have been feeling kind of cranky.  I think I will try a new deodorant.  I will keep you posted.</p>
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		<title>By: Toby Ord</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/10/bad-news-on-human-extinction.html#comment-435124</link>
		<dc:creator>Toby Ord</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 15:41:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20163#comment-435124</guid>
		<description>Some people care about more than just themselves...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some people care about more than just themselves&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Tyrrell McAllister</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/10/bad-news-on-human-extinction.html#comment-435123</link>
		<dc:creator>Tyrrell McAllister</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 15:07:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20163#comment-435123</guid>
		<description>You benefit if you put any value on humans other than yourself, or on anything that is preserved if humanity if preserved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You benefit if you put any value on humans other than yourself, or on anything that is preserved if humanity if preserved.</p>
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		<title>By: Wei Dai</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/10/bad-news-on-human-extinction.html#comment-435121</link>
		<dc:creator>Wei Dai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 14:22:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=20163#comment-435121</guid>
		<description>I was confused too. I think it&#039;s because Robin&#039;s phrasing left out the &quot;up to&quot; which makes it sound like he&#039;s talking about disasters that leave exactly 1000 or 100 people alive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was confused too. I think it&#8217;s because Robin&#8217;s phrasing left out the &#8220;up to&#8221; which makes it sound like he&#8217;s talking about disasters that leave exactly 1000 or 100 people alive.</p>
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