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	<title>Comments on: Poor Folks Do Smile</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/09/poor-folks-do-smile.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 01:09:57 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: What Sort of (Libertarian) Consequentialist are You? &#124; Bleeding Heart Libertarians</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/09/poor-folks-do-smile.html#comment-693226</link>
		<dc:creator>What Sort of (Libertarian) Consequentialist are You? &#124; Bleeding Heart Libertarians</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2012 13:09:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=19879#comment-693226</guid>
		<description>[...] standard as well. Tyler Cowen has some thoughtful reflections on these matters. Robin Hanson is pretty friendly to the repugnant conclusion, so he’s one exception. So if you’re worried about average utility and friendly to the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] standard as well. Tyler Cowen has some thoughtful reflections on these matters. Robin Hanson is pretty friendly to the repugnant conclusion, so he’s one exception. So if you’re worried about average utility and friendly to the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Overcoming Bias : Hatin&#8217; On Farmers</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/09/poor-folks-do-smile.html#comment-668351</link>
		<dc:creator>Overcoming Bias : Hatin&#8217; On Farmers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jan 2012 14:00:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=19879#comment-668351</guid>
		<description>[...] so they were mostly lives worth living, with much love, laughter, engagement, and satisfaction. Poor folk do smile. GD Star Ratingloading...     Tagged as: Farmer, History   Trackback [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] so they were mostly lives worth living, with much love, laughter, engagement, and satisfaction. Poor folk do smile. GD Star Ratingloading&#8230;     Tagged as: Farmer, History   Trackback [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Robustness of subjective well being is simultaneously beneficial and harmful &#171; N=1</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/09/poor-folks-do-smile.html#comment-493445</link>
		<dc:creator>Robustness of subjective well being is simultaneously beneficial and harmful &#171; N=1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Aug 2011 16:43:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=19879#comment-493445</guid>
		<description>[...] might be less likely to fight for change.  Similarly, economically privileged folks who see that poor people smile might be less likely to care about [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] might be less likely to fight for change.  Similarly, economically privileged folks who see that poor people smile might be less likely to care about [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Overcoming Bias : Lift Up Your Eyes</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/09/poor-folks-do-smile.html#comment-463176</link>
		<dc:creator>Overcoming Bias : Lift Up Your Eyes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Jan 2011 00:36:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=19879#comment-463176</guid>
		<description>[...] by a future of trillions of ems living at near subsistence wages. I&#8217;ve explained that &#8220;poor folks do smile&#8220;, that poor lives usually have plenty of joy and satisfaction, even if less than in rich [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] by a future of trillions of ems living at near subsistence wages. I&#8217;ve explained that &#8220;poor folks do smile&#8220;, that poor lives usually have plenty of joy and satisfaction, even if less than in rich [...]</p>
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		<title>By: How bad is poverty, really? : The Uncredible Hallq</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/09/poor-folks-do-smile.html#comment-434482</link>
		<dc:creator>How bad is poverty, really? : The Uncredible Hallq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 23:35:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=19879#comment-434482</guid>
		<description>[...] an innate distaste for birth control to be universal in the population. Or should we? Robin Hanson recently said otherwise: Our ancestors were designed with pleasure and pain to motivate them in a near subsistence world. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] an innate distaste for birth control to be universal in the population. Or should we? Robin Hanson recently said otherwise: Our ancestors were designed with pleasure and pain to motivate them in a near subsistence world. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Rafal Smigrodzki</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/09/poor-folks-do-smile.html#comment-434099</link>
		<dc:creator>Rafal Smigrodzki</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 22:39:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=19879#comment-434099</guid>
		<description>I wrote some comments to this post at http://smigrodzki.blogspot.com/2009/10/what-is-subsistence.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wrote some comments to this post at <a href="http://smigrodzki.blogspot.com/2009/10/what-is-subsistence.html" rel="nofollow">http://smigrodzki.blogspot.com/2009/10/what-is-subsistence.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: TruePath</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/09/poor-folks-do-smile.html#comment-433736</link>
		<dc:creator>TruePath</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 04:48:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=19879#comment-433736</guid>
		<description>Your making an unjustified assumtion of convergence.

Yes, in the long term there is an evolutionary pressure toward increased reproduction.  However, our ability to affect both our own makeup and the world around us is also increasing at a drastic rate.

It&#039;s totally possible that the system doesn&#039;t have any nice limiting behavior.  We might lurch from drastic attacks on reproductive instincts (cutting them out of our jeans) to warfare to periods of reproductive plenty.

Also it seems that as far as aggregate utility goes the amount contributed by some poor descendants will be small compared to the difference that we could make by building happy machines/brains and filling up giant mines with them.  Even a small chance of following that plan probably outweighs the other consequences.

---

Also here is a quick argument that aggregate utility isn&#039;t a useful measure.

Let&#039;s compare universe A which has reached a steady state with 100 billion people and universe B at a steady state of 200 billion people all having the same level of happiness.  If you accept aggregate utility as the desierable end you have to prefer universe B to A (twice the utility!)

But presumably you retain this preference even if you learn that both universe A and B will persist forever in these steady states.  Even though we can biject all the people who will live in universe A with those in universe B.  Thus it must be the fact that at any particular time B has twice as much utility as A.

However, now suppose that both universe A and B lie inside some larger domain and god decides he is going to slow down the passage of time in universe B so that only one second passes in universe B for every one in universe A.  Yet now A and B have the same utility per unit (absolute) time so no discounting of the future (should use absolute time) can give you reason to favor B over A.  So what remains to make B better than A?  Is it the fact that the B experiences are associated with more physical brains? 

I could continue and make the situation even more troublesome but I think you get the argument.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your making an unjustified assumtion of convergence.</p>
<p>Yes, in the long term there is an evolutionary pressure toward increased reproduction.  However, our ability to affect both our own makeup and the world around us is also increasing at a drastic rate.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s totally possible that the system doesn&#8217;t have any nice limiting behavior.  We might lurch from drastic attacks on reproductive instincts (cutting them out of our jeans) to warfare to periods of reproductive plenty.</p>
<p>Also it seems that as far as aggregate utility goes the amount contributed by some poor descendants will be small compared to the difference that we could make by building happy machines/brains and filling up giant mines with them.  Even a small chance of following that plan probably outweighs the other consequences.</p>
<p>&#8212;</p>
<p>Also here is a quick argument that aggregate utility isn&#8217;t a useful measure.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s compare universe A which has reached a steady state with 100 billion people and universe B at a steady state of 200 billion people all having the same level of happiness.  If you accept aggregate utility as the desierable end you have to prefer universe B to A (twice the utility!)</p>
<p>But presumably you retain this preference even if you learn that both universe A and B will persist forever in these steady states.  Even though we can biject all the people who will live in universe A with those in universe B.  Thus it must be the fact that at any particular time B has twice as much utility as A.</p>
<p>However, now suppose that both universe A and B lie inside some larger domain and god decides he is going to slow down the passage of time in universe B so that only one second passes in universe B for every one in universe A.  Yet now A and B have the same utility per unit (absolute) time so no discounting of the future (should use absolute time) can give you reason to favor B over A.  So what remains to make B better than A?  Is it the fact that the B experiences are associated with more physical brains? </p>
<p>I could continue and make the situation even more troublesome but I think you get the argument.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Overcoming Bias : This is the Dream Time</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/09/poor-folks-do-smile.html#comment-433725</link>
		<dc:creator>Overcoming Bias : This is the Dream Time</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 03:50:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=19879#comment-433725</guid>
		<description>[...] the economy, making per person income drop to near subsistence levels.  But even so, they will be basically happy in such a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the economy, making per person income drop to near subsistence levels.  But even so, they will be basically happy in such a [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jay</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/09/poor-folks-do-smile.html#comment-433709</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 01:35:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=19879#comment-433709</guid>
		<description>I do not share your faith that the ultimate limits are far in the future.  As far as I can tell, supporting Earth&#039;s current population produces quite a bit of stress on the ecosystem.  It seems likely, even, that maintaining our current population requires a large amount of dis-saving of environmental assets, which will eventually become unsustainable.

As far as virtual humanity goes, I am also skeptical.  It seems to me that a simulation of a human personality is not a person, in the same way that a simulation of an earthquake is not an earthquake.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do not share your faith that the ultimate limits are far in the future.  As far as I can tell, supporting Earth&#8217;s current population produces quite a bit of stress on the ecosystem.  It seems likely, even, that maintaining our current population requires a large amount of dis-saving of environmental assets, which will eventually become unsustainable.</p>
<p>As far as virtual humanity goes, I am also skeptical.  It seems to me that a simulation of a human personality is not a person, in the same way that a simulation of an earthquake is not an earthquake.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Wei Dai</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/09/poor-folks-do-smile.html#comment-433694</link>
		<dc:creator>Wei Dai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 22:19:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=19879#comment-433694</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Lives of continuous torture, where they’d rather be dead, were rare.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That&#039;s the wrong standard of comparison, surely. Instead, shouldn&#039;t you ask how many would prefer that they were never born in the first place, with full knowledge that the average standard of living of their siblings and (to a lesser extent) everyone else would be raised in that case?

(I&#039;m applying my understanding of your ethical system here. This isn&#039;t necessarily the question that &lt;em&gt;I&lt;/em&gt; would ask.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Lives of continuous torture, where they’d rather be dead, were rare.</p></blockquote>
<p>That&#8217;s the wrong standard of comparison, surely. Instead, shouldn&#8217;t you ask how many would prefer that they were never born in the first place, with full knowledge that the average standard of living of their siblings and (to a lesser extent) everyone else would be raised in that case?</p>
<p>(I&#8217;m applying my understanding of your ethical system here. This isn&#8217;t necessarily the question that <em>I</em> would ask.)</p>
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