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	<title>Comments on: Brothel Bundles</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/07/prostitution-pricing-prohibitions.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 04:20:14 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Clarisse Thorn</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/07/prostitution-pricing-prohibitions.html#comment-456000</link>
		<dc:creator>Clarisse Thorn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Oct 2010 06:16:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=19228#comment-456000</guid>
		<description>You know, Robin, most of the time when it comes to gender issues I think you&#039;re an irredeemable jerk, but I just wanted to say that I love this list and think it&#039;s brilliant.  &lt;a href=&quot;http://lovebites.blogs.chicago.timeout.com/2010/10/05/berlin-brothel-offers-eco-friendly-bike-discount/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Pingback&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, Robin, most of the time when it comes to gender issues I think you&#8217;re an irredeemable jerk, but I just wanted to say that I love this list and think it&#8217;s brilliant.  <a href="http://lovebites.blogs.chicago.timeout.com/2010/10/05/berlin-brothel-offers-eco-friendly-bike-discount/" rel="nofollow">Pingback</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Love Bites: Clarisse Thorn &#124; Time Out Chicago &#187; &#187; Berlin brothel offers eco-friendly bike discount</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/07/prostitution-pricing-prohibitions.html#comment-455999</link>
		<dc:creator>Love Bites: Clarisse Thorn &#124; Time Out Chicago &#187; &#187; Berlin brothel offers eco-friendly bike discount</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Oct 2010 06:12:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=19228#comment-455999</guid>
		<description>[...] me of this old post by Robin Hanson &#8212; who is almost always a total jerk when it comes to gender issues &#8212; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] me of this old post by Robin Hanson &#8212; who is almost always a total jerk when it comes to gender issues &#8212; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Art Of</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/07/prostitution-pricing-prohibitions.html#comment-432466</link>
		<dc:creator>Art Of</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 05:17:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=19228#comment-432466</guid>
		<description>As someone who was secretly prostituted out from the age of 6...I find it ALL deplorable. Condoning this &quot;business-like&quot; ethic is the equivalent of taste-testing different kinds of poo. You analyze and debate the most base of all behavior and assume your critical analysis creates an open dialogue. Do you have any idea who is using these girls? Do you understand the mistreatment that goes on behind closed doors? Do you think money legitimizes destroying someone&#039;s identity? And then to smugly believe that someone can walk past their 18th birthday with the strength of heart to choose the right path after having been abused their entire childhood. Yuck! Yuck!Yuck! Legalizing this ridiculous behavior just adds salt unto the wounds of victims....but I guess that&#039;s ok if you have a lust and their is a condom around somewhere to make it clean enough.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As someone who was secretly prostituted out from the age of 6&#8230;I find it ALL deplorable. Condoning this &#8220;business-like&#8221; ethic is the equivalent of taste-testing different kinds of poo. You analyze and debate the most base of all behavior and assume your critical analysis creates an open dialogue. Do you have any idea who is using these girls? Do you understand the mistreatment that goes on behind closed doors? Do you think money legitimizes destroying someone&#8217;s identity? And then to smugly believe that someone can walk past their 18th birthday with the strength of heart to choose the right path after having been abused their entire childhood. Yuck! Yuck!Yuck! Legalizing this ridiculous behavior just adds salt unto the wounds of victims&#8230;.but I guess that&#8217;s ok if you have a lust and their is a condom around somewhere to make it clean enough.</p>
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		<title>By: Rachel</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/07/prostitution-pricing-prohibitions.html#comment-431402</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 05:18:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=19228#comment-431402</guid>
		<description>Interesting read, the only one I would want banned would be 16, I agree with granite26 it is morally equivalent to a muslim person working at a slaughterhouse but I think government supplied unemployment benefits should be considerate of moral preferences for jobs and exemtion should be allowed for both cases. If the benefit was from a private insurance company that had unemployment insurance I wouldn&#039;t want it banned though, as long as the contrct made it clear when you signed up. 
10 and 11 I find offensive but I think the reputation effect would do a large part to make the problem pretty small in most industries. Any business that cares about it&#039;s reputation wouldn&#039;t engage in such activities.
9 I think you could make an externality case against, and therefore a ban might be in order. Since if it&#039;s well known that brothels give alibis then even legitimate alibis are suspiscious, and this may engender distrust in even solid relationships where there hasn&#039;t been any cheating, this could even in turn hurt business at bars etc if men are more prone to coming home straight away to prove their faithfullness</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting read, the only one I would want banned would be 16, I agree with granite26 it is morally equivalent to a muslim person working at a slaughterhouse but I think government supplied unemployment benefits should be considerate of moral preferences for jobs and exemtion should be allowed for both cases. If the benefit was from a private insurance company that had unemployment insurance I wouldn&#8217;t want it banned though, as long as the contrct made it clear when you signed up.<br />
10 and 11 I find offensive but I think the reputation effect would do a large part to make the problem pretty small in most industries. Any business that cares about it&#8217;s reputation wouldn&#8217;t engage in such activities.<br />
9 I think you could make an externality case against, and therefore a ban might be in order. Since if it&#8217;s well known that brothels give alibis then even legitimate alibis are suspiscious, and this may engender distrust in even solid relationships where there hasn&#8217;t been any cheating, this could even in turn hurt business at bars etc if men are more prone to coming home straight away to prove their faithfullness</p>
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		<title>By: Autumnal Harvest</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/07/prostitution-pricing-prohibitions.html#comment-431107</link>
		<dc:creator>Autumnal Harvest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 05:30:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=19228#comment-431107</guid>
		<description>This is really a fascinating list. As a sex-positive feminist who believes that prostitution should be legal, but has a lot of discomfort with that belief, it really makes me think about my &quot;urge to ban sex sales.&quot;

The basic reason that I believe prostitution should be legal is because I believe in people as autonomous individuals, who can best decide how to freely make choices for themselves. But I have a lot of discomfort with that belief, largely because I believe the view of individuals as able to make free autonomous choices is often a libertarian fiction---I believe it reasonable to say that people are &quot;forced&quot; to do something by circumstances, even if they are not physically coerced into doing so. But the line between when an individual is acting freely and autonomously, and when they&#039;re forced to by circumstance, is pretty vague in my head. A libertarian might say it&#039;s vague because it&#039;s an incoherent distinction, because I&#039;m essentially saying that people can be &quot;forced to choose&quot; things. I would instead say that the two ends of the spectrum are qualitatively different, but in a way that doesn&#039;t lend itself to a sharp distinction. As you describe the structure of ways that emphasize more than women might be commodities, rather than individuals in charge of their job choice of prostitute, I get more and more uncomfortable with my support of legalized prostitution. Different people draw the line in different places, and the flat-rate brothels don&#039;t personally raise any hackles for me. But I think this distinction between &quot;autonomous individuals&quot; and &quot;forced by circumstance&quot; is why most people, even those in favor of legalized prostitution, have internal conflicts about what is OK.

For me, #10, #11, and #16 are the only ones that seem ban-worthy, because they really emphasize that when prostitution is legal and/or treated like any other job, the structure of incentives can change to force (not physically) women into prostitution who would not, absent legalization, have wanted to choose it. e.g. under #10, the secretarial job that they might freely chosen and gotten, under prohibition, may now only be available when bundled with prostitution. I&#039;m offended by #9, but don&#039;t find it ban-worthy. The rest, I&#039;m not offended by, although they increasing levels of discomfort in correlation with the degree to which they make me think of prostitutes as commodities, rather than individuals choosing to be prostitutes.

Thanks for a fun mental exercise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is really a fascinating list. As a sex-positive feminist who believes that prostitution should be legal, but has a lot of discomfort with that belief, it really makes me think about my &#8220;urge to ban sex sales.&#8221;</p>
<p>The basic reason that I believe prostitution should be legal is because I believe in people as autonomous individuals, who can best decide how to freely make choices for themselves. But I have a lot of discomfort with that belief, largely because I believe the view of individuals as able to make free autonomous choices is often a libertarian fiction&#8212;I believe it reasonable to say that people are &#8220;forced&#8221; to do something by circumstances, even if they are not physically coerced into doing so. But the line between when an individual is acting freely and autonomously, and when they&#8217;re forced to by circumstance, is pretty vague in my head. A libertarian might say it&#8217;s vague because it&#8217;s an incoherent distinction, because I&#8217;m essentially saying that people can be &#8220;forced to choose&#8221; things. I would instead say that the two ends of the spectrum are qualitatively different, but in a way that doesn&#8217;t lend itself to a sharp distinction. As you describe the structure of ways that emphasize more than women might be commodities, rather than individuals in charge of their job choice of prostitute, I get more and more uncomfortable with my support of legalized prostitution. Different people draw the line in different places, and the flat-rate brothels don&#8217;t personally raise any hackles for me. But I think this distinction between &#8220;autonomous individuals&#8221; and &#8220;forced by circumstance&#8221; is why most people, even those in favor of legalized prostitution, have internal conflicts about what is OK.</p>
<p>For me, #10, #11, and #16 are the only ones that seem ban-worthy, because they really emphasize that when prostitution is legal and/or treated like any other job, the structure of incentives can change to force (not physically) women into prostitution who would not, absent legalization, have wanted to choose it. e.g. under #10, the secretarial job that they might freely chosen and gotten, under prohibition, may now only be available when bundled with prostitution. I&#8217;m offended by #9, but don&#8217;t find it ban-worthy. The rest, I&#8217;m not offended by, although they increasing levels of discomfort in correlation with the degree to which they make me think of prostitutes as commodities, rather than individuals choosing to be prostitutes.</p>
<p>Thanks for a fun mental exercise.</p>
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		<title>By: Granite26</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/07/prostitution-pricing-prohibitions.html#comment-431069</link>
		<dc:creator>Granite26</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 15:40:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=19228#comment-431069</guid>
		<description>I understand people being offended by negotiations that would seem to alien the prostitute from the customer.  Basically, any situation where she&#039;s not allowed to say &#039;NO&#039; before-hand  is bad, and any situation that implies that is questionable (Hence the gift certificates or vouchers or &#039;any girl&#039; stuff)

For 11 and 16, compare prostitution to working at Hooters.  Would you require a girl to get a job waiting tables at Hooters before she could collect unemployment?  How about a Muslim working at a pig slaughterhouse?  They are, from a relativist perspective, morally equivilent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand people being offended by negotiations that would seem to alien the prostitute from the customer.  Basically, any situation where she&#8217;s not allowed to say &#8216;NO&#8217; before-hand  is bad, and any situation that implies that is questionable (Hence the gift certificates or vouchers or &#8216;any girl&#8217; stuff)</p>
<p>For 11 and 16, compare prostitution to working at Hooters.  Would you require a girl to get a job waiting tables at Hooters before she could collect unemployment?  How about a Muslim working at a pig slaughterhouse?  They are, from a relativist perspective, morally equivilent.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicholas Novitski</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/07/prostitution-pricing-prohibitions.html#comment-431043</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicholas Novitski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 14:42:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=19228#comment-431043</guid>
		<description>Negotiations for sexual favors require the cooperation of both sides, lest it become rape.  So anything that seems to alienate one side from their cooperation will smack of such.  If Alfred and Betty have sex, that&#039;s fine, but if Alfred then pays Betty for a &quot;certificate&quot; that seems to entitle anyone of his choice (for example, his emotionally-distant friend Charles) to Betty&#039;s ministrations, then that is double-plus un-fine, even if Betty had &quot;agreed&quot; to it ahead of time (agreement doesn&#039;t mean undue pressure was not applied, nor that the agree-er was fully aware of all consequences, nor that the presence of consenting adults sanctifies all possible acts).  All variations of this scheme are subject to the same criticism.

The bundles are straight out of Idiocracy, and further, nonsequiturs.  What does sex have to do with accountancy?  You can offer me a free oil change with my Big Mac, but it won&#039;t make me any less leery to have the same people fixing my car and my food.  They only appear to make sense in the patriarchal mind because female cleaning staff (or female teachers or female therapists) and prostitutes are both seen as subservient.  So they&#039;re doubly bad for having manipulative advertising and reinforcing gender normative etceteras.

#15 is horrific.  Countenancing the enforcement of sexual servitude for religious reasons has been bad enough already.

Other possibilities:

	Supporting local children&#039;s sports teams
	Accepting food stamps
	In lieu of application fee for housing/rental agreements (The &quot;casting couch&quot; would only avoid being wildly inappropriate if the job was to create or emote sexual pleasure, since requiring payment for a job application is already bullshit.)


#7 is a long-standing dream of mine, but I suspect there would be issues with accreditation: the brothels have too much incentive to sell the &quot;diplomas&quot; to anyone, which would sadly devalue them to meaninglessness.  But that is well besides the point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Negotiations for sexual favors require the cooperation of both sides, lest it become rape.  So anything that seems to alienate one side from their cooperation will smack of such.  If Alfred and Betty have sex, that&#8217;s fine, but if Alfred then pays Betty for a &#8220;certificate&#8221; that seems to entitle anyone of his choice (for example, his emotionally-distant friend Charles) to Betty&#8217;s ministrations, then that is double-plus un-fine, even if Betty had &#8220;agreed&#8221; to it ahead of time (agreement doesn&#8217;t mean undue pressure was not applied, nor that the agree-er was fully aware of all consequences, nor that the presence of consenting adults sanctifies all possible acts).  All variations of this scheme are subject to the same criticism.</p>
<p>The bundles are straight out of Idiocracy, and further, nonsequiturs.  What does sex have to do with accountancy?  You can offer me a free oil change with my Big Mac, but it won&#8217;t make me any less leery to have the same people fixing my car and my food.  They only appear to make sense in the patriarchal mind because female cleaning staff (or female teachers or female therapists) and prostitutes are both seen as subservient.  So they&#8217;re doubly bad for having manipulative advertising and reinforcing gender normative etceteras.</p>
<p>#15 is horrific.  Countenancing the enforcement of sexual servitude for religious reasons has been bad enough already.</p>
<p>Other possibilities:</p>
<p>	Supporting local children&#8217;s sports teams<br />
	Accepting food stamps<br />
	In lieu of application fee for housing/rental agreements (The &#8220;casting couch&#8221; would only avoid being wildly inappropriate if the job was to create or emote sexual pleasure, since requiring payment for a job application is already bullshit.)</p>
<p>#7 is a long-standing dream of mine, but I suspect there would be issues with accreditation: the brothels have too much incentive to sell the &#8220;diplomas&#8221; to anyone, which would sadly devalue them to meaninglessness.  But that is well besides the point.</p>
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		<title>By: Oliver Beatson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/07/prostitution-pricing-prohibitions.html#comment-431023</link>
		<dc:creator>Oliver Beatson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 00:11:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=19228#comment-431023</guid>
		<description>I disagree with the claim that 4 is bad. Indeed I think that it should be the prostitute&#039;s right to charge whatever they want, on the basis that attractiveness would make the job more pleasant for the prostitute. The less pleasant a job, the less reasonable it is to expect it to be paid as poorly as a pleasant job.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I disagree with the claim that 4 is bad. Indeed I think that it should be the prostitute&#8217;s right to charge whatever they want, on the basis that attractiveness would make the job more pleasant for the prostitute. The less pleasant a job, the less reasonable it is to expect it to be paid as poorly as a pleasant job.</p>
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		<title>By: Z. M. Davis</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/07/prostitution-pricing-prohibitions.html#comment-431011</link>
		<dc:creator>Z. M. Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Aug 2009 17:08:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=19228#comment-431011</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;&quot;it’s not at all clear to me that you really understand what Vichy means&quot;&lt;/em&gt;

Hmm. Maybe I was jumping to a conclusion. Vichy or Andy, what&#039;s the interpretation that I&#039;m missing?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>&#8220;it’s not at all clear to me that you really understand what Vichy means&#8221;</em></p>
<p>Hmm. Maybe I was jumping to a conclusion. Vichy or Andy, what&#8217;s the interpretation that I&#8217;m missing?</p>
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		<title>By: Andy the Programmer</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/07/prostitution-pricing-prohibitions.html#comment-431006</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy the Programmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Aug 2009 14:19:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=19228#comment-431006</guid>
		<description>I find the rather thick condescension in this comment and the linked one distasteful and ironic, especially since it&#039;s not at all clear to me that &lt;em&gt;you&lt;/em&gt; really understand what &lt;em&gt;Vichy&lt;/em&gt; means.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find the rather thick condescension in this comment and the linked one distasteful and ironic, especially since it&#8217;s not at all clear to me that <em>you</em> really understand what <em>Vichy</em> means.</p>
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