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	<title>Comments on: Satisfied with Status Affiliation</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/06/satisfied-with-status-affiliation.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 04:20:14 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: &#187; Do przeczytania: 14.06.2009 Trystero: Niezależny blog finansowy</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/06/satisfied-with-status-affiliation.html#comment-428927</link>
		<dc:creator>&#187; Do przeczytania: 14.06.2009 Trystero: Niezależny blog finansowy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Jun 2009 21:38:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=18582#comment-428927</guid>
		<description>[...] Robin Hanson o ukrytym rasizmie, stereotypach lub chęcią do biznesowego wiązania się z osobami o wyższym statusie społecznym. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Robin Hanson o ukrytym rasizmie, stereotypach lub chęcią do biznesowego wiązania się z osobami o wyższym statusie społecznym. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/06/satisfied-with-status-affiliation.html#comment-428826</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 04:29:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=18582#comment-428826</guid>
		<description>It might be a response bias; people may only claim to have liked the white males better when confronted by an authority figure because they associate whites with authority and do not want to agitate them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It might be a response bias; people may only claim to have liked the white males better when confronted by an authority figure because they associate whites with authority and do not want to agitate them.</p>
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		<title>By: EconTech &#187; Hanson on Racism</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/06/satisfied-with-status-affiliation.html#comment-428816</link>
		<dc:creator>EconTech &#187; Hanson on Racism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:11:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=18582#comment-428816</guid>
		<description>[...] apparent racial and gender preferences (hint: white males seem to be preferred). He concludes his post with: People usually invoke two explanations for such [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] apparent racial and gender preferences (hint: white males seem to be preferred). He concludes his post with: People usually invoke two explanations for such [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Constant</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/06/satisfied-with-status-affiliation.html#comment-425345</link>
		<dc:creator>Constant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 23:20:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=18582#comment-425345</guid>
		<description>g - If I had meant primary I would have said primary, not &quot;largely&quot;. However, I would like to add that there&#039;s a lot of rationalization in choice, and that many of the supposedly substantial reasons for rejecting Palin are rationalizations thinly disguising a visceral reaction to her rusticity. An individual can well be the last person to know why he really makes the choices he does. Introspection is overrated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>g &#8211; If I had meant primary I would have said primary, not &#8220;largely&#8221;. However, I would like to add that there&#8217;s a lot of rationalization in choice, and that many of the supposedly substantial reasons for rejecting Palin are rationalizations thinly disguising a visceral reaction to her rusticity. An individual can well be the last person to know why he really makes the choices he does. Introspection is overrated.</p>
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		<title>By: g</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/06/satisfied-with-status-affiliation.html#comment-425342</link>
		<dc:creator>g</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 21:45:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=18582#comment-425342</guid>
		<description>You said &quot;appears largely to have been&quot; rather than, say, &quot;appears to have been in part&quot;; I think it&#039;s understandable that I interpreted that as a statement about the primary cause. I have no idea why you&#039;re asking whether I &quot;dispute&quot; and/or &quot;deny&quot;  a number of entirely different claims, most of which FWIW I agree with. It seems as if you are responding to someone entirely other than me making comments entirely different from mine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You said &#8220;appears largely to have been&#8221; rather than, say, &#8220;appears to have been in part&#8221;; I think it&#8217;s understandable that I interpreted that as a statement about the primary cause. I have no idea why you&#8217;re asking whether I &#8220;dispute&#8221; and/or &#8220;deny&#8221;  a number of entirely different claims, most of which FWIW I agree with. It seems as if you are responding to someone entirely other than me making comments entirely different from mine.</p>
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		<title>By: ThomasL</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/06/satisfied-with-status-affiliation.html#comment-425334</link>
		<dc:creator>ThomasL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 17:41:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=18582#comment-425334</guid>
		<description>With the caveat I haven&#039;t read the full paper, some of the most interesting points to me are:

&lt;blockquote&gt;The regularity with which doctors place heart patients on certain drugs, for example, is a good measure of the quality of their care. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Really?  I mean, is that enough to know?  Bad, lazy doctors don&#039;t write prescriptions for their patients but good, diligent doctors do?  I haven&#039;t direct evidence, but I&#039;d imagine a few things:


	Most heart doctors place most heart patients on similar drug regimens.  That is, I imagine this distribution is unusually tight.
	Where there are outliers in the drug regimens, it may well be related to demographics, not quality.  Perhaps subtle differences in population age, culture, or race can alter which drugs and treatments are considered most effective.  (Wandering from the main point, but that cuts both to the patients, who by age or race maybe more receptive to certain treatments, and to the doctors.  Eg, what if the minority doctors tended to be younger than the white, male doctors.  They may have different training which leads them to prescribe more or fewer drugs.  Age might also play a factor in patient satisfaction.  I think most people instinctively feel more comfortable with a sixty-something, grey-haired doctor than a late twenties one, regardless of race or sex.)

	Prescribing a drug may be as likely to indicate laziness as it is diligence.  &quot;Here, just take these twice a day...&quot;



&lt;blockquote&gt;Hekman also studied the satisfaction levels of 3,600 golfers at 66 clubs nationwide. Clubs that employed higher numbers of Latinos were rated more poorly than clubs employing fewer minorities — even when they performed identically on objective measures.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I think there is another explanation for this.  I think it is about perception in the club&#039;s focus on quality.  For example, if you are buying cutlery and you look at one set which looks nice, seems well made and has a mark, &quot;Made in Germany.&quot;  And then you look at another which looks just as nice, just as well made, but says &quot;Made in China.&quot;  Which one gives one a better feeling?  My answer is Germany.   But is that racist?  Does that mean I like Germans better than I like Chinese?  Not really.  I perceive the &quot;Made in China&quot; stamp as a cost-cutting measure and the &quot;Made in Germany&quot; stamp as a premium.  I think, &quot;They outsourced production to China to get a better deal on manufacturing.&quot;  I actually want everyone to get a good deal on manufacturing, but it still reveals to me that the company was more concerned with cost than with &quot;premiumness&quot; (to coin a phrase).  And that introduces the question, &quot;If they are cutting costs there, where else might they be cutting?&quot;  

Hiring Latino workers is likewise often seen as a cost-cutting measure, reminding patrons, &quot;If they are cutting cost there...&quot;

It isn&#039;t that other companies don&#039;t cut costs, it is that they may do it without reminding that patron that they are.  

I don&#039;t think the perception that outsourcing production to China or hiring Latino workers is cost-cutting is either mistaken or comments one way or the other on racism, as cost is, in fact, why most businesses that choose to do so do it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With the caveat I haven&#8217;t read the full paper, some of the most interesting points to me are:</p>
<blockquote><p>The regularity with which doctors place heart patients on certain drugs, for example, is a good measure of the quality of their care. </p></blockquote>
<p>Really?  I mean, is that enough to know?  Bad, lazy doctors don&#8217;t write prescriptions for their patients but good, diligent doctors do?  I haven&#8217;t direct evidence, but I&#8217;d imagine a few things:</p>
<p>	Most heart doctors place most heart patients on similar drug regimens.  That is, I imagine this distribution is unusually tight.<br />
	Where there are outliers in the drug regimens, it may well be related to demographics, not quality.  Perhaps subtle differences in population age, culture, or race can alter which drugs and treatments are considered most effective.  (Wandering from the main point, but that cuts both to the patients, who by age or race maybe more receptive to certain treatments, and to the doctors.  Eg, what if the minority doctors tended to be younger than the white, male doctors.  They may have different training which leads them to prescribe more or fewer drugs.  Age might also play a factor in patient satisfaction.  I think most people instinctively feel more comfortable with a sixty-something, grey-haired doctor than a late twenties one, regardless of race or sex.)</p>
<p>	Prescribing a drug may be as likely to indicate laziness as it is diligence.  &#8220;Here, just take these twice a day&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<blockquote><p>Hekman also studied the satisfaction levels of 3,600 golfers at 66 clubs nationwide. Clubs that employed higher numbers of Latinos were rated more poorly than clubs employing fewer minorities — even when they performed identically on objective measures.</p></blockquote>
<p>I think there is another explanation for this.  I think it is about perception in the club&#8217;s focus on quality.  For example, if you are buying cutlery and you look at one set which looks nice, seems well made and has a mark, &#8220;Made in Germany.&#8221;  And then you look at another which looks just as nice, just as well made, but says &#8220;Made in China.&#8221;  Which one gives one a better feeling?  My answer is Germany.   But is that racist?  Does that mean I like Germans better than I like Chinese?  Not really.  I perceive the &#8220;Made in China&#8221; stamp as a cost-cutting measure and the &#8220;Made in Germany&#8221; stamp as a premium.  I think, &#8220;They outsourced production to China to get a better deal on manufacturing.&#8221;  I actually want everyone to get a good deal on manufacturing, but it still reveals to me that the company was more concerned with cost than with &#8220;premiumness&#8221; (to coin a phrase).  And that introduces the question, &#8220;If they are cutting costs there, where else might they be cutting?&#8221;  </p>
<p>Hiring Latino workers is likewise often seen as a cost-cutting measure, reminding patrons, &#8220;If they are cutting cost there&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>It isn&#8217;t that other companies don&#8217;t cut costs, it is that they may do it without reminding that patron that they are.  </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think the perception that outsourcing production to China or hiring Latino workers is cost-cutting is either mistaken or comments one way or the other on racism, as cost is, in fact, why most businesses that choose to do so do it.</p>
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		<title>By: Nebu Pookins</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/06/satisfied-with-status-affiliation.html#comment-425333</link>
		<dc:creator>Nebu Pookins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 17:28:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=18582#comment-425333</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I wonder if female and black volunteers too liked white males more.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Probably. See &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybDa0gSuAcg&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybDa0gSuAcg&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I wonder if female and black volunteers too liked white males more.</p></blockquote>
<p>Probably. See <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybDa0gSuAcg" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybDa0gSuAcg</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Babcock</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/06/satisfied-with-status-affiliation.html#comment-425326</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Babcock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:32:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=18582#comment-425326</guid>
		<description>I find the use of prescription rate, e-mail rate, and number of questions asked as proxies for quality of care to be quite suspicious. Writing more prescriptions suggests writing some that&#039;re unnecessary; sending more e-mails implies leaving questions unaddressed at the office; and asking more questions correlates with having a light case load. While it is interesting that these metrics correlate with perceived performance for some races and genders but not for others, I see no reason to treat positive correlation as correct and negative correlation as biased, and I see very strong reason to suspect that patients were actually judging performance based on something else entirely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find the use of prescription rate, e-mail rate, and number of questions asked as proxies for quality of care to be quite suspicious. Writing more prescriptions suggests writing some that&#8217;re unnecessary; sending more e-mails implies leaving questions unaddressed at the office; and asking more questions correlates with having a light case load. While it is interesting that these metrics correlate with perceived performance for some races and genders but not for others, I see no reason to treat positive correlation as correct and negative correlation as biased, and I see very strong reason to suspect that patients were actually judging performance based on something else entirely.</p>
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		<title>By: JoshT</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/06/satisfied-with-status-affiliation.html#comment-425325</link>
		<dc:creator>JoshT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:16:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=18582#comment-425325</guid>
		<description>If Rush Limbaugh, or Sean Hannity sat next to me at a restaurant I think I would not only have a lower opinion of my food, but also feel that I would need to reevaluate my food choices. Not sure if they would count as celebrities anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Rush Limbaugh, or Sean Hannity sat next to me at a restaurant I think I would not only have a lower opinion of my food, but also feel that I would need to reevaluate my food choices. Not sure if they would count as celebrities anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: Constant</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/06/satisfied-with-status-affiliation.html#comment-425315</link>
		<dc:creator>Constant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:40:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.overcomingbias.com/?p=18582#comment-425315</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I would expect that members of minority groups would not be racially biased against their own group.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

However, two other possibilities:

1) They may rationally discriminate against their own race (that was explanation 2 in Robin&#039;s post)

2) Status may not be a single scale for all, but may depend on your subgroup. I recall a while ago this idea, or something like it, was popular on the economics blogs. So a black person who prefers black businesses may be applying his own sense that blacks are higher status than whites.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I would expect that members of minority groups would not be racially biased against their own group.</p></blockquote>
<p>However, two other possibilities:</p>
<p>1) They may rationally discriminate against their own race (that was explanation 2 in Robin&#8217;s post)</p>
<p>2) Status may not be a single scale for all, but may depend on your subgroup. I recall a while ago this idea, or something like it, was popular on the economics blogs. So a black person who prefers black businesses may be applying his own sense that blacks are higher status than whites.</p>
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