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	<title>Comments on: Generous Lust</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/romantically-primed-generosity.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: The Baldchemist</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/romantically-primed-generosity.html#comment-430367</link>
		<dc:creator>The Baldchemist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 09:44:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/05/generous-lust.html#comment-430367</guid>
		<description>It stems from religious indoctrination. In a country where 90% claim religious belief and women&#039;s subserviance is encouraged you will always get difference. Try the same experiment in Scandinavia where women are brought up as equals and the results would be astoundingly different.
( the religious n Scandinavia only account for 24%).
Nice one to figure out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It stems from religious indoctrination. In a country where 90% claim religious belief and women&#8217;s subserviance is encouraged you will always get difference. Try the same experiment in Scandinavia where women are brought up as equals and the results would be astoundingly different.<br />
( the religious n Scandinavia only account for 24%).<br />
Nice one to figure out.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Howard</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/romantically-primed-generosity.html#comment-384678</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Howard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 May 2009 22:25:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/05/generous-lust.html#comment-384678</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;The primed men were also willing (or at least said they were willing) to act heroically as well as spend—but only if the action suggested was life-threatening.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I wonder if for the same reasons it works the other way too - being in such situations when potential mates are watching increases arousal. I&#039;m thinking of a certain study by Dutton and Aron (1974)...

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;
In the study, an attractive woman approached men while they were walking across the Capilano River Bridge in British Columbia. Only those without a female companion were approached. The woman asked the men to make up a brief story for a project she was doing on creativity. The Capilano River Bridge sways precariously more than 200 feet above rapids and rocks. The female interviewer made the same request of other men crossing a much safer, lower bridge. The men on the Capilano River Bridge told more sex-ually oriented stories and rated the female interviewer more attractive than did men on the lower, less frightening bridge.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p><i>The primed men were also willing (or at least said they were willing) to act heroically as well as spend—but only if the action suggested was life-threatening.</i></p></blockquote>
<p>I wonder if for the same reasons it works the other way too &#8211; being in such situations when potential mates are watching increases arousal. I&#8217;m thinking of a certain study by Dutton and Aron (1974)&#8230;</p>
<blockquote><p><i><br />
In the study, an attractive woman approached men while they were walking across the Capilano River Bridge in British Columbia. Only those without a female companion were approached. The woman asked the men to make up a brief story for a project she was doing on creativity. The Capilano River Bridge sways precariously more than 200 feet above rapids and rocks. The female interviewer made the same request of other men crossing a much safer, lower bridge. The men on the Capilano River Bridge told more sex-ually oriented stories and rated the female interviewer more attractive than did men on the lower, less frightening bridge.</i></p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: TruePath</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/romantically-primed-generosity.html#comment-384677</link>
		<dc:creator>TruePath</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 May 2009 20:48:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/05/generous-lust.html#comment-384677</guid>
		<description>As to the broader question under discussion I think we are approaching a region were our standard models start to break down and the concepts we&#039;ve built on those foundations start becoming incoherent.

By way of analogy consider the Newtonian model of physics.  So long as we are describing objects that move slowly relative to the speed of light it&#039;s meaningful to say that 1/2mv^2 is the definition of kinetic energy while also thinking of kinetic energy as the capacity to do work.  In the Newtonian model those two notions are necessarily coextensive so as Quine classically points out there is just no fact of that matter as to which of these is the &#039;real&#039; definition of kinetic energy pre-Einstein.  However, when we leave the Newtonian realm and try to deploy the concept of Newtonian kinetic energy and insist it both be computed using 1/2mv^2 (m=rest mass) and satisfy our idea of energy as capacity to do work the concept itself is revealed to be no longer well defined.

I would argue that once you leave the world of folk psychology and start doing these kinds of experiments concepts like &#039;want&#039;, &#039;desire&#039;, &#039;motivation&#039; etc.. suffer a similar fate.  Indeed, I would go so far as to say that once you start doing serious brain science even our notion of causation is rendered incoherent (yes there are regularities across time but I submit that causation is a concept rooted in the simplifying assumption that our deciscions are made &#039;freely&#039;).

So ultimately I think it&#039;s just misleading to describe the observed result as showing that people are &#039;really&#039; doing these things for ignoble reasons or the like.  Rather those concepts simply stop being good ways to describe the world in these kind of situations.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As to the broader question under discussion I think we are approaching a region were our standard models start to break down and the concepts we&#8217;ve built on those foundations start becoming incoherent.</p>
<p>By way of analogy consider the Newtonian model of physics.  So long as we are describing objects that move slowly relative to the speed of light it&#8217;s meaningful to say that 1/2mv^2 is the definition of kinetic energy while also thinking of kinetic energy as the capacity to do work.  In the Newtonian model those two notions are necessarily coextensive so as Quine classically points out there is just no fact of that matter as to which of these is the &#8216;real&#8217; definition of kinetic energy pre-Einstein.  However, when we leave the Newtonian realm and try to deploy the concept of Newtonian kinetic energy and insist it both be computed using 1/2mv^2 (m=rest mass) and satisfy our idea of energy as capacity to do work the concept itself is revealed to be no longer well defined.</p>
<p>I would argue that once you leave the world of folk psychology and start doing these kinds of experiments concepts like &#8216;want&#8217;, &#8216;desire&#8217;, &#8216;motivation&#8217; etc.. suffer a similar fate.  Indeed, I would go so far as to say that once you start doing serious brain science even our notion of causation is rendered incoherent (yes there are regularities across time but I submit that causation is a concept rooted in the simplifying assumption that our deciscions are made &#8216;freely&#8217;).</p>
<p>So ultimately I think it&#8217;s just misleading to describe the observed result as showing that people are &#8216;really&#8217; doing these things for ignoble reasons or the like.  Rather those concepts simply stop being good ways to describe the world in these kind of situations.</p>
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		<title>By: TruePath</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/romantically-primed-generosity.html#comment-384676</link>
		<dc:creator>TruePath</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 May 2009 20:24:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/05/generous-lust.html#comment-384676</guid>
		<description>@Hopefully Anonymouse,

I don&#039;t see much tension.  Indeed it seems to be very similar to men&#039;s behavior.  Sure there is a sense in which every guy would &#039;prefer&#039; to be married to Angelina Jolie or another world famous model/actress but it&#039;s only the very weak counterfactual sense that if they&#039;d been invited to Hollywood parties and been hit on by movie stars during their teen/early adult years they would have most probably taken that option instead of pursuing the kind of girl they did/are hooking up with.

Going for broke and refusing all but the very best potential mates regardless of your own pulling power isn&#039;t a very good genetic strategy.  Much better to cut your chances of getting with a super model by a tenth or even a hundredth if that bumps up your chances of landing the slightly more fit mate in your league.  In particular once you realize certain mates our out of your league it will be advantageous to signal to those who are that you&#039;re willing to make long term commitments to raising offspring with them instead of trading up first chance you get.  The obvious way for this to happen is to evolve the ability to genuienly feel strong sexual attraction and strong devotion to your best plausible option.

In other words men and women are evolved to find mates in their own league attractive even if that&#039;s pretty far down on the desirability scale.  Women find project boys attractive because they look like an evolutionary fire sale.  Since her competitors don&#039;t see the boy&#039;s potential the girl has a good chance or landing him even though mating with him offers more benefits than most of the guys in her league.

---

I realize I&#039;m not giving you a theory.  I&#039;m just suggesting why this doesn&#039;t seem problematic to me.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Hopefully Anonymouse,</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see much tension.  Indeed it seems to be very similar to men&#8217;s behavior.  Sure there is a sense in which every guy would &#8216;prefer&#8217; to be married to Angelina Jolie or another world famous model/actress but it&#8217;s only the very weak counterfactual sense that if they&#8217;d been invited to Hollywood parties and been hit on by movie stars during their teen/early adult years they would have most probably taken that option instead of pursuing the kind of girl they did/are hooking up with.</p>
<p>Going for broke and refusing all but the very best potential mates regardless of your own pulling power isn&#8217;t a very good genetic strategy.  Much better to cut your chances of getting with a super model by a tenth or even a hundredth if that bumps up your chances of landing the slightly more fit mate in your league.  In particular once you realize certain mates our out of your league it will be advantageous to signal to those who are that you&#8217;re willing to make long term commitments to raising offspring with them instead of trading up first chance you get.  The obvious way for this to happen is to evolve the ability to genuienly feel strong sexual attraction and strong devotion to your best plausible option.</p>
<p>In other words men and women are evolved to find mates in their own league attractive even if that&#8217;s pretty far down on the desirability scale.  Women find project boys attractive because they look like an evolutionary fire sale.  Since her competitors don&#8217;t see the boy&#8217;s potential the girl has a good chance or landing him even though mating with him offers more benefits than most of the guys in her league.</p>
<p>&#8212;</p>
<p>I realize I&#8217;m not giving you a theory.  I&#8217;m just suggesting why this doesn&#8217;t seem problematic to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Hopefully Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/romantically-primed-generosity.html#comment-384675</link>
		<dc:creator>Hopefully Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 May 2009 05:37:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/05/generous-lust.html#comment-384675</guid>
		<description>The social science literature on female human reproductive strategies seems deformed and incoherent to me. I haven&#039;t seen a good resolved framework that encompasses women wanting high status mates, and women falling for broken males that are &quot;projects&quot;, for example. There seems to me to be tension between competing motivations that have existed for thousands of years. Most of the literature seems to me to be selling one point of view or the latter -I haven&#039;t seen a coherent unified theory presented yet (or even a good faith attempt in that direction): too often theories and studies seem to me to be partially deformed as propaganda for one image of female sexual attraction towards one male archetype/subpopulation or another. I don&#039;t think your post or the quoted article escapes this deformation.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The social science literature on female human reproductive strategies seems deformed and incoherent to me. I haven&#8217;t seen a good resolved framework that encompasses women wanting high status mates, and women falling for broken males that are &#8220;projects&#8221;, for example. There seems to me to be tension between competing motivations that have existed for thousands of years. Most of the literature seems to me to be selling one point of view or the latter -I haven&#8217;t seen a coherent unified theory presented yet (or even a good faith attempt in that direction): too often theories and studies seem to me to be partially deformed as propaganda for one image of female sexual attraction towards one male archetype/subpopulation or another. I don&#8217;t think your post or the quoted article escapes this deformation.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruno Torquato</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/romantically-primed-generosity.html#comment-384674</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruno Torquato</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 03:05:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/05/generous-lust.html#comment-384674</guid>
		<description>Though I might be inclined to agree that we are biologically motivated to engage in activities that we believe will propagate our genes (showing off), I am doubtful of the idea that HOW we choose to engage in this propagation is determined by our sex. I feel that too often the word &quot;sex&quot; was being used at times when &quot;gender&quot; would have been more appropriate. There are certainly women who manage to scratch through socialization just enough to care about seeming attainable through &quot;conspicuous luxury.&quot; There are certainly also men who sell themselves through &quot;public ... helping.&quot; I know nothing of the original data, but even if it doesn&#039;t reflect this to a considerable degree, it would be irresponsible to claim that our methods are biologically determined by our sex from the sheer fact that the opposite can certainly be observed at times. That&#039;s one of the bigger problems with making bold determinations from rounded data. There needs to be more room for its granularity (or lack thereof) to be discussed.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Though I might be inclined to agree that we are biologically motivated to engage in activities that we believe will propagate our genes (showing off), I am doubtful of the idea that HOW we choose to engage in this propagation is determined by our sex. I feel that too often the word &#8220;sex&#8221; was being used at times when &#8220;gender&#8221; would have been more appropriate. There are certainly women who manage to scratch through socialization just enough to care about seeming attainable through &#8220;conspicuous luxury.&#8221; There are certainly also men who sell themselves through &#8220;public &#8230; helping.&#8221; I know nothing of the original data, but even if it doesn&#8217;t reflect this to a considerable degree, it would be irresponsible to claim that our methods are biologically determined by our sex from the sheer fact that the opposite can certainly be observed at times. That&#8217;s one of the bigger problems with making bold determinations from rounded data. There needs to be more room for its granularity (or lack thereof) to be discussed.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob Wintersmith</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/romantically-primed-generosity.html#comment-384673</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob Wintersmith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 May 2009 11:45:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/05/generous-lust.html#comment-384673</guid>
		<description>Robin, you&#039;re correct that I did lose sight of the highly conditional nature of the subjects&#039; desires. I am reminded of Paul Bloom&#039;s article, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200811/multiple-personalities&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;First Person Plural&lt;/a&gt;, which discusses a psychological model where each individual &quot;contains multiple selves — all with different desires, and all fighting for control&quot;. So I&#039;d say that the subjects were not mistaken as to what desires they had, but they were mistaken if they thought of themselves as unified selves with consistent desires.

In any case, the classical model of an person as a single entity with a single set of well-established desires clearly breaks down in these circumstances.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin, you&#8217;re correct that I did lose sight of the highly conditional nature of the subjects&#8217; desires. I am reminded of Paul Bloom&#8217;s article, <a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200811/multiple-personalities" rel="nofollow">First Person Plural</a>, which discusses a psychological model where each individual &#8220;contains multiple selves — all with different desires, and all fighting for control&#8221;. So I&#8217;d say that the subjects were not mistaken as to what desires they had, but they were mistaken if they thought of themselves as unified selves with consistent desires.</p>
<p>In any case, the classical model of an person as a single entity with a single set of well-established desires clearly breaks down in these circumstances.</p>
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		<title>By: nazgulnarsil</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/romantically-primed-generosity.html#comment-384672</link>
		<dc:creator>nazgulnarsil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 May 2009 00:26:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/05/generous-lust.html#comment-384672</guid>
		<description>I thought the whole point of terminal values vs instrumental values was that we&#039;re not conscious of the relationship between the values we have been imbued with and their effect on fitness.  We don&#039;t want to spend a bunch of money because we&#039;re conscious of signaling fitness to potential mates, we just know that we get a hit of brain chemicals when we do.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought the whole point of terminal values vs instrumental values was that we&#8217;re not conscious of the relationship between the values we have been imbued with and their effect on fitness.  We don&#8217;t want to spend a bunch of money because we&#8217;re conscious of signaling fitness to potential mates, we just know that we get a hit of brain chemicals when we do.</p>
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		<title>By: Vladimir Slepnev</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/romantically-primed-generosity.html#comment-384671</link>
		<dc:creator>Vladimir Slepnev</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 May 2009 21:42:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/05/generous-lust.html#comment-384671</guid>
		<description>Robin, your key question relies on a conflation of meanings of the word &quot;want&quot;. Do you mean &quot;feel&quot; or &quot;follow&quot;? Those people were not mistaken about what desires they felt, but ignorant about what caused those desires to arise; what goals they were following and why. Feelings give your brain good directions with false reasons ready-attached. One more point for your &quot;public relations department&quot; concept.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin, your key question relies on a conflation of meanings of the word &#8220;want&#8221;. Do you mean &#8220;feel&#8221; or &#8220;follow&#8221;? Those people were not mistaken about what desires they felt, but ignorant about what caused those desires to arise; what goals they were following and why. Feelings give your brain good directions with false reasons ready-attached. One more point for your &#8220;public relations department&#8221; concept.</p>
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		<title>By: Kenny Evitt</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/romantically-primed-generosity.html#comment-384670</link>
		<dc:creator>Kenny Evitt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 May 2009 20:07:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/05/generous-lust.html#comment-384670</guid>
		<description>Do you really find this disturbing? I&#039;m not sure they were or are significantly mistaken about their desires. Our desires, near term, are fickle and I believe most people would agree that that&#039;s true about themselves. Priming, as a general phenomena, isn&#039;t so unknown; we have numerous words in English for specific examples:
&lt;ul&gt;&lt;li&gt;Inspired&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Humiliated&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Excited&lt;/li&gt;&lt;li&gt;Sobered&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ul&gt;
Don&#039;t priming effects typically vanish when subjects are informed of the effect? [Priming &#039;priming&#039; is an apparently effective self-antidote.] Still, I&#039;m more convinced now that early language was primarily or significantly devoted to manipulating each other&#039;s behavior.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do you really find this disturbing? I&#8217;m not sure they were or are significantly mistaken about their desires. Our desires, near term, are fickle and I believe most people would agree that that&#8217;s true about themselves. Priming, as a general phenomena, isn&#8217;t so unknown; we have numerous words in English for specific examples:</p>
<ul>
<li>Inspired</li>
<li>Humiliated</li>
<li>Excited</li>
<li>Sobered</li>
</ul>
<p>Don&#8217;t priming effects typically vanish when subjects are informed of the effect? [Priming 'priming' is an apparently effective self-antidote.] Still, I&#8217;m more convinced now that early language was primarily or significantly devoted to manipulating each other&#8217;s behavior.</p>
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