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	<title>Comments on: Near Far In Science Fiction</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/near-far-in-science-fiction.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: Zubon</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/near-far-in-science-fiction.html#comment-384458</link>
		<dc:creator>Zubon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 12:06:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/05/near-far-in-science-fiction.html#comment-384458</guid>
		<description>&quot;Also, do these guys supposedly have transportation technology? That might make a bit of a mess of the concept of distance.&quot;
I think we have a winner here.  If you have nigh-limitless energy enabling instant transportation around a planet, you can live in Bangalore and commute to Des Moines.

On the other hand, if you have nigh-limitless energy, your option set is very large indeed.  Sci fi and fantasy typically fail to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/07/lawrence-watt-e.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;see through the implications&lt;/a&gt; of changing important assumptions.

And I&#039;m also in the Campbellian school.  Space opera is doing something very different from hard science fiction.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Also, do these guys supposedly have transportation technology? That might make a bit of a mess of the concept of distance.&#8221;<br />
I think we have a winner here.  If you have nigh-limitless energy enabling instant transportation around a planet, you can live in Bangalore and commute to Des Moines.</p>
<p>On the other hand, if you have nigh-limitless energy, your option set is very large indeed.  Sci fi and fantasy typically fail to <a href="http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/07/lawrence-watt-e.html" rel="nofollow">see through the implications</a> of changing important assumptions.</p>
<p>And I&#8217;m also in the Campbellian school.  Space opera is doing something very different from hard science fiction.</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Knight</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/near-far-in-science-fiction.html#comment-384457</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Knight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 15:22:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/05/near-far-in-science-fiction.html#comment-384457</guid>
		<description>Not to claim (or deny) that he&#039;s representative, but Star Trek&#039;s Scotty is a heroic &lt;em&gt;engineer&lt;/em&gt;. The new movie makes him the isolated mad scientist / inventor, but in the original series he was a maintainer of tools, called to heroism by circumstance, I think.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not to claim (or deny) that he&#8217;s representative, but Star Trek&#8217;s Scotty is a heroic <em>engineer</em>. The new movie makes him the isolated mad scientist / inventor, but in the original series he was a maintainer of tools, called to heroism by circumstance, I think.</p>
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		<title>By: Brandon</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/near-far-in-science-fiction.html#comment-384456</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 May 2009 02:17:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/05/near-far-in-science-fiction.html#comment-384456</guid>
		<description>I had pretty much the same response as Phil Goetz. Outside the Analog stream the heroic scientist trope is not all that common these days, and it would be unexpected to find all that many Challengers and Summerlees today. And it&#039;s worth noting that quite a bit of science fiction is even the complete opposite: the scientist as someone we need to keep a close ethics-minded eye on, because the power of science can be used for terrible villainy. Frankenstein&#039;s monster and Robur the conqueror and the reign of terror of the Invisible Man and Jurassic Park and all that.

I think part of the difficulty is that we really shouldn&#039;t think of science fiction as a unified genre in the first place; rather, it&#039;s a very diverse family of very different general types of stories that often trade particular tropes and ideas (sometimes with the point of criticizing them in the context of a different sort of story). So it&#039;s an area of literature where generalizations are very difficult to make. &lt;i&gt;Star Trek&lt;/i&gt; is probably closer to the description in the post than most science fiction, since I take it that heroic, world-changing scientists were definitely part of Roddenberry&#039;s vision; but it&#039;s actually very hard to make good, exciting stories about heroic, galaxy-changing lab work, so it&#039;s mostly just vague background rather than actual story. And the &#039;change the arc of history&#039; storytelling seems to me to have less to do with the science fiction of it all and more to do with the fact that (when done right) it makes for more awesome TV and movies.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had pretty much the same response as Phil Goetz. Outside the Analog stream the heroic scientist trope is not all that common these days, and it would be unexpected to find all that many Challengers and Summerlees today. And it&#8217;s worth noting that quite a bit of science fiction is even the complete opposite: the scientist as someone we need to keep a close ethics-minded eye on, because the power of science can be used for terrible villainy. Frankenstein&#8217;s monster and Robur the conqueror and the reign of terror of the Invisible Man and Jurassic Park and all that.</p>
<p>I think part of the difficulty is that we really shouldn&#8217;t think of science fiction as a unified genre in the first place; rather, it&#8217;s a very diverse family of very different general types of stories that often trade particular tropes and ideas (sometimes with the point of criticizing them in the context of a different sort of story). So it&#8217;s an area of literature where generalizations are very difficult to make. <i>Star Trek</i> is probably closer to the description in the post than most science fiction, since I take it that heroic, world-changing scientists were definitely part of Roddenberry&#8217;s vision; but it&#8217;s actually very hard to make good, exciting stories about heroic, galaxy-changing lab work, so it&#8217;s mostly just vague background rather than actual story. And the &#8216;change the arc of history&#8217; storytelling seems to me to have less to do with the science fiction of it all and more to do with the fact that (when done right) it makes for more awesome TV and movies.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil Goetz</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/near-far-in-science-fiction.html#comment-384455</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Goetz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 23:37:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/05/near-far-in-science-fiction.html#comment-384455</guid>
		<description>&gt; I think your observation applies to SF from the John Campbell school, and to anything published in Analog, past or present.

Checking Wikipedia reminds me that John Campbell founded Analog, so these categories are synonyms.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>> I think your observation applies to SF from the John Campbell school, and to anything published in Analog, past or present.</p>
<p>Checking Wikipedia reminds me that John Campbell founded Analog, so these categories are synonyms.</p>
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		<title>By: Cyan</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/near-far-in-science-fiction.html#comment-384454</link>
		<dc:creator>Cyan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 21:54:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/05/near-far-in-science-fiction.html#comment-384454</guid>
		<description>Just guessing here, but I think Robin&#039;s point is that scientists doing Science(tm) don&#039;t design or manufacture all that sweet, sweet technological crap that makes life so nice. Science: necessary but not sufficient. Brain and pancreas indeed.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just guessing here, but I think Robin&#8217;s point is that scientists doing Science(tm) don&#8217;t design or manufacture all that sweet, sweet technological crap that makes life so nice. Science: necessary but not sufficient. Brain and pancreas indeed.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil Goetz</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/near-far-in-science-fiction.html#comment-384453</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Goetz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 21:07:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/05/near-far-in-science-fiction.html#comment-384453</guid>
		<description>Robin wrote:&lt;blockquote&gt;After all, the (basically-false) core conceit of science fiction is that scientists are heroic because it is they who most make our modern world powerful.

So it is important that major SF story characters do actually have substantial connection to or influence on the grand arc of history, however implausible that may be.&lt;/blockquote&gt;That might be a good description of much SF written before 1960.  It is not a good description of SF written after 1960.  More recent science fiction is more often about how technology might change the lives of ordinary people.

Star Trek is about grand arcs, but is not about heroic scientists.  Many things pre-1960 also don&#039;t fit the pattern; the writings of Cordwainer Smith or Alfred Bester, for example, as well as the vast Edgar Rice Burroughs/Buck Rogers/EE Doc Smith space opera literature.

I think your observation applies to SF from the John Campbell school, and to anything published in Analog, past or present.

Why do you call the conceit &quot;basically false&quot;?  Who has made our modern world powerful more than scientists have?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin wrote:<br />
<blockquote>After all, the (basically-false) core conceit of science fiction is that scientists are heroic because it is they who most make our modern world powerful.</p>
<p>So it is important that major SF story characters do actually have substantial connection to or influence on the grand arc of history, however implausible that may be.</p></blockquote>
<p>That might be a good description of much SF written before 1960.  It is not a good description of SF written after 1960.  More recent science fiction is more often about how technology might change the lives of ordinary people.</p>
<p>Star Trek is about grand arcs, but is not about heroic scientists.  Many things pre-1960 also don&#8217;t fit the pattern; the writings of Cordwainer Smith or Alfred Bester, for example, as well as the vast Edgar Rice Burroughs/Buck Rogers/EE Doc Smith space opera literature.</p>
<p>I think your observation applies to SF from the John Campbell school, and to anything published in Analog, past or present.</p>
<p>Why do you call the conceit &#8220;basically false&#8221;?  Who has made our modern world powerful more than scientists have?</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/near-far-in-science-fiction.html#comment-384452</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 20:55:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/05/near-far-in-science-fiction.html#comment-384452</guid>
		<description>&quot;After all, the (basically-false) core conceit of science fiction is that scientists are heroic because it is they who most make our modern world powerful.&quot;

That doesn&#039;t strike me as the core conceit of science fiction at all. In fact, very little of the science fiction I have read features scientists as heroes. Or do you not mean to imply that science fiction has scientists as hero &lt;i&gt;characters&lt;/i&gt; but rather that the heroism of scientists is somehow implicit?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;After all, the (basically-false) core conceit of science fiction is that scientists are heroic because it is they who most make our modern world powerful.&#8221;</p>
<p>That doesn&#8217;t strike me as the core conceit of science fiction at all. In fact, very little of the science fiction I have read features scientists as heroes. Or do you not mean to imply that science fiction has scientists as hero <i>characters</i> but rather that the heroism of scientists is somehow implicit?</p>
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		<title>By: asdf</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/near-far-in-science-fiction.html#comment-384451</link>
		<dc:creator>asdf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 20:30:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/05/near-far-in-science-fiction.html#comment-384451</guid>
		<description>I think it&#039;s a little funny that the picture above is not believable due to &quot;economies of agglomeration&quot;, where it&#039;s quite obvious, even before any zoning issues, that they [the Federation] are going to have a hell of a time getting that ship out into earth orbit using belly thrusters like a harrier jet. I&#039;m pretty sure these things should be built in space, unless it can hover while turning sky-facing then blast off like a rocket, or enter warp speed from a stand still touching earth.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s a little funny that the picture above is not believable due to &#8220;economies of agglomeration&#8221;, where it&#8217;s quite obvious, even before any zoning issues, that they [the Federation] are going to have a hell of a time getting that ship out into earth orbit using belly thrusters like a harrier jet. I&#8217;m pretty sure these things should be built in space, unless it can hover while turning sky-facing then blast off like a rocket, or enter warp speed from a stand still touching earth.</p>
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		<title>By: spj</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/near-far-in-science-fiction.html#comment-384450</link>
		<dc:creator>spj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 19:15:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/05/near-far-in-science-fiction.html#comment-384450</guid>
		<description>Robin,

Saying that science is not what makes modern civilizations powerful is like saying brains are not what make humans powerful. After all, without a pancreas we&#039;d be dead, even with all the brains in the world. This is of course true, but absolutely obvious and completely unhelpful.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin,</p>
<p>Saying that science is not what makes modern civilizations powerful is like saying brains are not what make humans powerful. After all, without a pancreas we&#8217;d be dead, even with all the brains in the world. This is of course true, but absolutely obvious and completely unhelpful.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Tyler</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/near-far-in-science-fiction.html#comment-384449</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Tyler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 May 2009 19:07:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/05/near-far-in-science-fiction.html#comment-384449</guid>
		<description>Perhaps there are times when it pays to distribute industrial infrastructure - so as not to present such an appealing target.  Also, do these guys supposedly have transportation technology?  That might make a bit of a mess of the concept of distance.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps there are times when it pays to distribute industrial infrastructure &#8211; so as not to present such an appealing target.  Also, do these guys supposedly have transportation technology?  That might make a bit of a mess of the concept of distance.</p>
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