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	<title>Comments on: Against Admirable Activities, Again</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/against-admirable-activities-again.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: Stan</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/against-admirable-activities-again.html#comment-424688</link>
		<dc:creator>Stan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 02:09:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/05/against-admirable-activities-again.html#comment-424688</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Robin&lt;/b&gt;, is there some reason we can&#039;t both love some art, and love some artists?  I see no reason it can&#039;t be both.  Much of the art I like I value because seeing or hearing it elicits emotions.  If I&#039;m in a groove, there&#039;s no need for more convoluted explanation than liking being in a groove.  Similarly, if I&#039;m considering the value after the experience, I&#039;ll place most of the value on the groove.  If I&#039;m hearing a performance where a musician adds more to the work, I&#039;ll see additional value the musician. 

Isn&#039;t there plenty of support for an alternative argument: that we value most those activities which elicit an emotional response?  That we are using them to prime, stimulate, and experience emotions? 

Another consideration: could admiring trading reduce our trading effectiveness?  Wouldn&#039;t the thinking associated with admiration make us more likely to trust the trader, and be taken advantage of?  Disliking the middlemen can be taken too far, but it&#039;s also beneficial if our distaste leads us to strive to eliminate them, or make them as lean as possible. 

&lt;b&gt;Vichy&lt;/b&gt;, I don&#039;t know of any evidence that supports primitive hunter-gatherers being any happier, less stressed, or more free for leisure.  Do you know of any? 

Plenty of evidence of violence, from Cro-Magnon on, has been found as marks on bones, lodged flint points, etc.  I&#039;d be willing to make the claim that just general trends of reduced violence over time are enough to suggest that happiness has increased overall.  Likely, stress too.  Gathering meals is long, hard work.  If you&#039;ve ever picked wild berries, such as huckleberries, consider how much time that takes and how much you get.  Now consider that you&#039;re picking them at a time of food abundance.  There&#039;s good reason we specialized gathering and hunting until they became agriculture.

&lt;b&gt;Phil&lt;/b&gt;, interesting point.  I think that meshes well with my explanation, but what&#039;s your take?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Robin</b>, is there some reason we can&#8217;t both love some art, and love some artists?  I see no reason it can&#8217;t be both.  Much of the art I like I value because seeing or hearing it elicits emotions.  If I&#8217;m in a groove, there&#8217;s no need for more convoluted explanation than liking being in a groove.  Similarly, if I&#8217;m considering the value after the experience, I&#8217;ll place most of the value on the groove.  If I&#8217;m hearing a performance where a musician adds more to the work, I&#8217;ll see additional value the musician. </p>
<p>Isn&#8217;t there plenty of support for an alternative argument: that we value most those activities which elicit an emotional response?  That we are using them to prime, stimulate, and experience emotions? </p>
<p>Another consideration: could admiring trading reduce our trading effectiveness?  Wouldn&#8217;t the thinking associated with admiration make us more likely to trust the trader, and be taken advantage of?  Disliking the middlemen can be taken too far, but it&#8217;s also beneficial if our distaste leads us to strive to eliminate them, or make them as lean as possible. </p>
<p><b>Vichy</b>, I don&#8217;t know of any evidence that supports primitive hunter-gatherers being any happier, less stressed, or more free for leisure.  Do you know of any? </p>
<p>Plenty of evidence of violence, from Cro-Magnon on, has been found as marks on bones, lodged flint points, etc.  I&#8217;d be willing to make the claim that just general trends of reduced violence over time are enough to suggest that happiness has increased overall.  Likely, stress too.  Gathering meals is long, hard work.  If you&#8217;ve ever picked wild berries, such as huckleberries, consider how much time that takes and how much you get.  Now consider that you&#8217;re picking them at a time of food abundance.  There&#8217;s good reason we specialized gathering and hunting until they became agriculture.</p>
<p><b>Phil</b>, interesting point.  I think that meshes well with my explanation, but what&#8217;s your take?</p>
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		<title>By: MZ</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/against-admirable-activities-again.html#comment-384293</link>
		<dc:creator>MZ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 05:52:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/05/against-admirable-activities-again.html#comment-384293</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;When my kids were young and played a new game, the pattern was clear: If they won, they liked that game and wanted to play it again.&lt;/em&gt;

Reminds me of how teacher evaluations tend to be evaluations of student&#039;s own performance.  Teacher evaluations are anonymous, but you can see how the instructor&#039;s average score rises and falls with the class average.  If I could peer into the data, I suspect there would be a nontrivial correlation between individual student grades and their teacher evaluations.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>When my kids were young and played a new game, the pattern was clear: If they won, they liked that game and wanted to play it again.</em></p>
<p>Reminds me of how teacher evaluations tend to be evaluations of student&#8217;s own performance.  Teacher evaluations are anonymous, but you can see how the instructor&#8217;s average score rises and falls with the class average.  If I could peer into the data, I suspect there would be a nontrivial correlation between individual student grades and their teacher evaluations.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil Goetz</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/against-admirable-activities-again.html#comment-384292</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Goetz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 May 2009 06:10:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/05/against-admirable-activities-again.html#comment-384292</guid>
		<description>When it&#039;s hard to find the cause for something, you may be looking for causality in the wrong direction.

Most societies control access to all desirable occupations.  High-status jobs are available only to people from high-status families.  Only those of high birth and/or wealth could be knights, much as today, only those who have gone to Harvard can get the high-paying jobs on Wall Street.  Craftsman positions were often controlled by guilds, by inheritance, or by master craftsmen.  Trading has for a thousand years been the best occupation available to social outcasts.  (Banking is only available to well-off social outcasts.)

So it may be that people who were looked down on became traders, rather than the other way around.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When it&#8217;s hard to find the cause for something, you may be looking for causality in the wrong direction.</p>
<p>Most societies control access to all desirable occupations.  High-status jobs are available only to people from high-status families.  Only those of high birth and/or wealth could be knights, much as today, only those who have gone to Harvard can get the high-paying jobs on Wall Street.  Craftsman positions were often controlled by guilds, by inheritance, or by master craftsmen.  Trading has for a thousand years been the best occupation available to social outcasts.  (Banking is only available to well-off social outcasts.)</p>
<p>So it may be that people who were looked down on became traders, rather than the other way around.</p>
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		<title>By: Vichy</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/against-admirable-activities-again.html#comment-384291</link>
		<dc:creator>Vichy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 17:46:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/05/against-admirable-activities-again.html#comment-384291</guid>
		<description>&quot;But if we economists know anything it is that overall societies tend to hurt, not help, themselves by discouraging trade.&quot;
In regards to this notion of economists, it seems to be somewhat contradicted.  Human beings as primitive hunter-gatherers were probably happier, less stressed and had a lot more free time.  There weren&#039;t many of them, and there were a lot of things they couldn&#039;t do anything about.
As they increased their horizons, integrations and developed some form of household (and eventually exchange) economy, the vastly increased resources allowed further proliferation as well as assertions of dominance and benevolence.

Societies which discourage trade and commerce are not necessarily hurting themselves, IE impeding the actual sense of well-being of their members.  What they are hurting, though, is their competitiveness and sustainability.  Because if you make 35 cents a day, the guy who can pay you $10 an hour is going to be able to reshape the cultural environment with some efficacy.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But if we economists know anything it is that overall societies tend to hurt, not help, themselves by discouraging trade.&#8221;<br />
In regards to this notion of economists, it seems to be somewhat contradicted.  Human beings as primitive hunter-gatherers were probably happier, less stressed and had a lot more free time.  There weren&#8217;t many of them, and there were a lot of things they couldn&#8217;t do anything about.<br />
As they increased their horizons, integrations and developed some form of household (and eventually exchange) economy, the vastly increased resources allowed further proliferation as well as assertions of dominance and benevolence.</p>
<p>Societies which discourage trade and commerce are not necessarily hurting themselves, IE impeding the actual sense of well-being of their members.  What they are hurting, though, is their competitiveness and sustainability.  Because if you make 35 cents a day, the guy who can pay you $10 an hour is going to be able to reshape the cultural environment with some efficacy.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/against-admirable-activities-again.html#comment-384290</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 11:01:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/05/against-admirable-activities-again.html#comment-384290</guid>
		<description>Richard, I&#039;m claiming that the details of our behavior are better explained by us valuing the people who do admirable activities than us valuing the products of those admirable activities.  We love the art because we love the artist, not vice versa.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard, I&#8217;m claiming that the details of our behavior are better explained by us valuing the people who do admirable activities than us valuing the products of those admirable activities.  We love the art because we love the artist, not vice versa.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Griffin</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/against-admirable-activities-again.html#comment-384289</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Griffin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 07:57:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/05/against-admirable-activities-again.html#comment-384289</guid>
		<description>At the end Robin Hanson says: &quot;But if we economists know anything it is that overall societies tend to hurt, not help, themselves by discouraging trade.&quot;

...tend to hurt...
But what are the metrics?

Didn&#039;t the discussion in &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/capitas-vs-per-capita.html&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Capitas Vs. Per Capita&lt;/a&gt; show that the metrics are unclear?

Or: economies (whatever that means) tend to hurt themselves (whatever that means) when they discourage trade (whatever that means).

The above is akin to saying that if economists know anything it is they know their model.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At the end Robin Hanson says: &#8220;But if we economists know anything it is that overall societies tend to hurt, not help, themselves by discouraging trade.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8230;tend to hurt&#8230;<br />
But what are the metrics?</p>
<p>Didn&#8217;t the discussion in <a href="http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/capitas-vs-per-capita.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Capitas Vs. Per Capita</a> show that the metrics are unclear?</p>
<p>Or: economies (whatever that means) tend to hurt themselves (whatever that means) when they discourage trade (whatever that means).</p>
<p>The above is akin to saying that if economists know anything it is they know their model.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/against-admirable-activities-again.html#comment-384288</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 07:51:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/05/against-admirable-activities-again.html#comment-384288</guid>
		<description>Robin - &quot;&lt;i&gt;valuing the people who do something well is different from valuing doing the thing&lt;/i&gt;.&quot;

Does that mean your evaluation/advice is merely targeted at people who don&#039;t actually value art, singing, sport, etc.?  That is: &quot;Don&#039;t admire artists if you don&#039;t value the production of art!&quot;  Good advice, as far as it goes, but I assumed you were going for something a little less obvious...?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin &#8211; &#8220;<i>valuing the people who do something well is different from valuing doing the thing</i>.&#8221;</p>
<p>Does that mean your evaluation/advice is merely targeted at people who don&#8217;t actually value art, singing, sport, etc.?  That is: &#8220;Don&#8217;t admire artists if you don&#8217;t value the production of art!&#8221;  Good advice, as far as it goes, but I assumed you were going for something a little less obvious&#8230;?</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/against-admirable-activities-again.html#comment-384287</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 02:33:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/05/against-admirable-activities-again.html#comment-384287</guid>
		<description>Richard, valuing the people who do something well is different from valuing doing the thing.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard, valuing the people who do something well is different from valuing doing the thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Tomasz Wegrzanowski</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/against-admirable-activities-again.html#comment-384286</link>
		<dc:creator>Tomasz Wegrzanowski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 01:48:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/05/against-admirable-activities-again.html#comment-384286</guid>
		<description>nazgulnarsil: The &quot;until very recently&quot; disclaimer is not really necessary. Abusive behaviour and luck are still two main ways of getting your hands on a large fortune, it&#039;s hard to point at many people who got theirs without either of the two being very significant factors.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>nazgulnarsil: The &#8220;until very recently&#8221; disclaimer is not really necessary. Abusive behaviour and luck are still two main ways of getting your hands on a large fortune, it&#8217;s hard to point at many people who got theirs without either of the two being very significant factors.</p>
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		<title>By: redbud</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/05/against-admirable-activities-again.html#comment-384285</link>
		<dc:creator>redbud</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 01:19:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/05/against-admirable-activities-again.html#comment-384285</guid>
		<description>so make sure our kids enjoy and succeed at appropriate skills ;-)

is this that hard? cannot any adult design learning opportunities?

or should life be fully reactive? as in, oh, cr*p, did Christmas come again?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>so make sure our kids enjoy and succeed at appropriate skills <img src='http://www.overcomingbias.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>is this that hard? cannot any adult design learning opportunities?</p>
<p>or should life be fully reactive? as in, oh, cr*p, did Christmas come again?</p>
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