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	<title>Comments on: On Liberty vs. Efficiency</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/04/on-liberty-vs-efficiency.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/04/on-liberty-vs-efficiency.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: Overcoming Bias : Reply to Caplan</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/04/on-liberty-vs-efficiency.html#comment-424804</link>
		<dc:creator>Overcoming Bias : Reply to Caplan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 16:05:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/04/on-liberty-vs-efficiency.html#comment-424804</guid>
		<description>[...] if everyone else gets the same of what they want, and no other special considerations apply.  Elsewhere I told Bryan why economic efficiency is a good metric if goodness increases as each person gets [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] if everyone else gets the same of what they want, and no other special considerations apply.  Elsewhere I told Bryan why economic efficiency is a good metric if goodness increases as each person gets [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Overcoming Bias : Minimal Morals</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/04/on-liberty-vs-efficiency.html#comment-424760</link>
		<dc:creator>Overcoming Bias : Minimal Morals</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 May 2009 10:08:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/04/on-liberty-vs-efficiency.html#comment-424760</guid>
		<description>[...] something close to preference utilitarianism, which is pretty close to the economist&#8217;s usual efficiency [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] something close to preference utilitarianism, which is pretty close to the economist&#8217;s usual efficiency [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Tyler</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/04/on-liberty-vs-efficiency.html#comment-385030</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Tyler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 23:07:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/04/on-liberty-vs-efficiency.html#comment-385030</guid>
		<description>Re: what grounds are there for weighing everyone equally?

If you are dealing with a democratic organisation, or one where the members like the American Declaration of Independence, or go in for political correctness, that assumption might be useful.

It seems to me that there are other cases where it is not such a useful assumption.  Ignoring the views of the old is common: they will be dead soon anyway - so their opinions don&#039;t matter.  Ignoring the views of the young is common: they are too inexperienced to know better - and so on.

In some circles, idea that &quot;everyone is equal&quot; is considered to be politically-correct nonsense - and if you are offering economic advice to groups of such folks, &quot;efficiency&quot; seems unlikely to be a good selling point.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: what grounds are there for weighing everyone equally?</p>
<p>If you are dealing with a democratic organisation, or one where the members like the American Declaration of Independence, or go in for political correctness, that assumption might be useful.</p>
<p>It seems to me that there are other cases where it is not such a useful assumption.  Ignoring the views of the old is common: they will be dead soon anyway &#8211; so their opinions don&#8217;t matter.  Ignoring the views of the young is common: they are too inexperienced to know better &#8211; and so on.</p>
<p>In some circles, idea that &#8220;everyone is equal&#8221; is considered to be politically-correct nonsense &#8211; and if you are offering economic advice to groups of such folks, &#8220;efficiency&#8221; seems unlikely to be a good selling point.</p>
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		<title>By: Arare Litus</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/04/on-liberty-vs-efficiency.html#comment-385029</link>
		<dc:creator>Arare Litus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 18:07:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/04/on-liberty-vs-efficiency.html#comment-385029</guid>
		<description>Does efficiency measures not assume that valuations are meaningfully comparible? Is this true for any &quot;interesting&quot; issue? Also, couldn&#039;t one say that if you really (and strongly) believed this (efficiency over liberty) Robin, that you would not enter into a debate format, but mearly take a poll at the begining, sum the results, and say &quot;that is the winning idea here?&quot;, &quot;I win&quot; or (more paradoxically) &quot;I lose&quot; (repeat in case of tie until summed indifference is broken?). Doesn&#039;t debate assume a liberty perspective?

http://arare-litus.blogspot.com/2009/04/efficiency-is-it-meaningful.html

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does efficiency measures not assume that valuations are meaningfully comparible? Is this true for any &#8220;interesting&#8221; issue? Also, couldn&#8217;t one say that if you really (and strongly) believed this (efficiency over liberty) Robin, that you would not enter into a debate format, but mearly take a poll at the begining, sum the results, and say &#8220;that is the winning idea here?&#8221;, &#8220;I win&#8221; or (more paradoxically) &#8220;I lose&#8221; (repeat in case of tie until summed indifference is broken?). Doesn&#8217;t debate assume a liberty perspective?</p>
<p><a href="http://arare-litus.blogspot.com/2009/04/efficiency-is-it-meaningful.html" rel="nofollow">http://arare-litus.blogspot.com/2009/04/efficiency-is-it-meaningful.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: nazgulnarsil</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/04/on-liberty-vs-efficiency.html#comment-385028</link>
		<dc:creator>nazgulnarsil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 14:20:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/04/on-liberty-vs-efficiency.html#comment-385028</guid>
		<description>what grounds are there for weighing everyone equally?  People don&#039;t like to compromise with groups who are too dissimilar from themselves.  Combined with robin&#039;s comment that people shouldnt be expected to understand the decisions of the experts, this would seem to create a situation where people are being told to do something they don&#039;t want to do and not being given an intelligible explanation.  The resulting friction should figure into calculation no?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>what grounds are there for weighing everyone equally?  People don&#8217;t like to compromise with groups who are too dissimilar from themselves.  Combined with robin&#8217;s comment that people shouldnt be expected to understand the decisions of the experts, this would seem to create a situation where people are being told to do something they don&#8217;t want to do and not being given an intelligible explanation.  The resulting friction should figure into calculation no?</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Tyler</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/04/on-liberty-vs-efficiency.html#comment-385027</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Tyler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 11:08:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/04/on-liberty-vs-efficiency.html#comment-385027</guid>
		<description>Re: better for whom? - Robin&#039;s definition of &quot;efficiency&quot; answers that with: &quot;everyone, equally weighted&quot;.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: better for whom? &#8211; Robin&#8217;s definition of &#8220;efficiency&#8221; answers that with: &#8220;everyone, equally weighted&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Knight</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/04/on-liberty-vs-efficiency.html#comment-385026</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Knight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 05:49:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/04/on-liberty-vs-efficiency.html#comment-385026</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;how do you monitor the arguments for and against liberty as a heuristic?&lt;/em&gt;

I meant that it is easier monitor whether whether a simple heuristic is implemented than to monitor whether complicated arguments are implemented. Also, assessing the arguments for a heuristic is a one-time cost, while checking that new arguments are not trojan horses is an on-going cost.


&lt;em&gt;Economists should continue to offer better advice than a simple heuristic can offer, and eventually prove ourselves worthy of being followed.&lt;/em&gt;

That completely ignores the public choice issues: better for whom?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>how do you monitor the arguments for and against liberty as a heuristic?</em></p>
<p>I meant that it is easier monitor whether whether a simple heuristic is implemented than to monitor whether complicated arguments are implemented. Also, assessing the arguments for a heuristic is a one-time cost, while checking that new arguments are not trojan horses is an on-going cost.</p>
<p><em>Economists should continue to offer better advice than a simple heuristic can offer, and eventually prove ourselves worthy of being followed.</em></p>
<p>That completely ignores the public choice issues: better for whom?</p>
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		<title>By: Silas</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/04/on-liberty-vs-efficiency.html#comment-385025</link>
		<dc:creator>Silas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 03:55:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/04/on-liberty-vs-efficiency.html#comment-385025</guid>
		<description>@Robin Hanson: &lt;i&gt;All, Sen&#039;s example as he stated it didn&#039;t make clear why the parties could not make a mutually beneficial deal; so it is only a good example if you assume a barrier to such deals. But I don&#039;t understand the obsession with it here;&lt;/i&gt;

The obsession isn&#039;t with Sen&#039;s example; the obsession is with why people give it any attention in the first place, since it&#039;s so useless and so misleading as to be wrong.  It amounts to saying:

1) Two arbitrary rankings can be different.
2) If you call one of them &quot;liberty&quot;, despite this being the opposite of what everyone means by the term, then liberty is bad.

And Sen isn&#039;t saying that there&#039;s a barrier to these potential deals; he&#039;s saying the deals violate liberty!

Hint to Sen: If your position requires that waiving rights is the same as violating those rights, you made a mistake somewhere.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Robin Hanson: <i>All, Sen&#8217;s example as he stated it didn&#8217;t make clear why the parties could not make a mutually beneficial deal; so it is only a good example if you assume a barrier to such deals. But I don&#8217;t understand the obsession with it here;</i></p>
<p>The obsession isn&#8217;t with Sen&#8217;s example; the obsession is with why people give it any attention in the first place, since it&#8217;s so useless and so misleading as to be wrong.  It amounts to saying:</p>
<p>1) Two arbitrary rankings can be different.<br />
2) If you call one of them &#8220;liberty&#8221;, despite this being the opposite of what everyone means by the term, then liberty is bad.</p>
<p>And Sen isn&#8217;t saying that there&#8217;s a barrier to these potential deals; he&#8217;s saying the deals violate liberty!</p>
<p>Hint to Sen: If your position requires that waiving rights is the same as violating those rights, you made a mistake somewhere.</p>
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		<title>By: diogenes</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/04/on-liberty-vs-efficiency.html#comment-385024</link>
		<dc:creator>diogenes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 03:12:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/04/on-liberty-vs-efficiency.html#comment-385024</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;No other large community of expert advisers has anywhere near the economists&#039; deserved reputation for consistently suggesting win-win deals.&lt;/i&gt;

Heh -- exactly who says this? Maybe I read the wrong sites or interact with the wrong people, but I rarely find anyone outside of econ giving considering economists &quot;highly&quot; (not that the converse is true, just that where is the &quot;data&quot; for this presumed reputation, cause I don&#039;t see it).


&lt;i&gt;The more that economists agree, and the further from politically charged topics, the more your can trust their advice. &lt;/i&gt;

HEH, to write this sentence in the current financial crisis is very amusing. Perhaps you ought to ask your colleagues on the religion of deregulation and what happened with that. It didn&#039;t seem that there was much disagreement on this topic until things blew up.

As Phil mentioned -- Taleb and many others seems to think very lowly of economics in general -- so I find it puzzling you think economists have a good rap -- cause I&#039;ve never see anything to suggest that.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>No other large community of expert advisers has anywhere near the economists&#8217; deserved reputation for consistently suggesting win-win deals.</i></p>
<p>Heh &#8212; exactly who says this? Maybe I read the wrong sites or interact with the wrong people, but I rarely find anyone outside of econ giving considering economists &#8220;highly&#8221; (not that the converse is true, just that where is the &#8220;data&#8221; for this presumed reputation, cause I don&#8217;t see it).</p>
<p><i>The more that economists agree, and the further from politically charged topics, the more your can trust their advice. </i></p>
<p>HEH, to write this sentence in the current financial crisis is very amusing. Perhaps you ought to ask your colleagues on the religion of deregulation and what happened with that. It didn&#8217;t seem that there was much disagreement on this topic until things blew up.</p>
<p>As Phil mentioned &#8212; Taleb and many others seems to think very lowly of economics in general &#8212; so I find it puzzling you think economists have a good rap &#8212; cause I&#8217;ve never see anything to suggest that.</p>
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		<title>By: Grant</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/04/on-liberty-vs-efficiency.html#comment-385023</link>
		<dc:creator>Grant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 02:41:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/04/on-liberty-vs-efficiency.html#comment-385023</guid>
		<description>I think there are two seperate arguments here: One is which ideas in economics have value? The second is can and will politics use the value of economics to increase welfare?

Economics influences market processes (perhaps more than it influences political ones?). Trusting a liberty heuristic or trusting some economists doesn&#039;t seem to be mutually exclusive choice to me (especially since economics is a smorgasbord of ideas).
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there are two seperate arguments here: One is which ideas in economics have value? The second is can and will politics use the value of economics to increase welfare?</p>
<p>Economics influences market processes (perhaps more than it influences political ones?). Trusting a liberty heuristic or trusting some economists doesn&#8217;t seem to be mutually exclusive choice to me (especially since economics is a smorgasbord of ideas).</p>
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