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	<title>Comments on: Free Docs Not Help Poor Kids</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/01/free-medicine-no-help-for-ghanaian-kids.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/01/free-medicine-no-help-for-ghanaian-kids.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: Michael Bishop</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/01/free-medicine-no-help-for-ghanaian-kids.html#comment-389020</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Bishop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 02:14:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/01/free-docs-not-help-poor-kids.html#comment-389020</guid>
		<description>I think this post deserves an additional &quot;Added:&quot; to point out what cannot be concluded on the basis of this study.  I thank Student of Economics for the comments.

Clarification in the comments is insufficient for such important info.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this post deserves an additional &#8220;Added:&#8221; to point out what cannot be concluded on the basis of this study.  I thank Student of Economics for the comments.</p>
<p>Clarification in the comments is insufficient for such important info.</p>
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		<title>By: Raven Daegmorgan</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/01/free-medicine-no-help-for-ghanaian-kids.html#comment-389019</link>
		<dc:creator>Raven Daegmorgan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 03:11:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/01/free-docs-not-help-poor-kids.html#comment-389019</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I think Robin&#039;s point is that while the study isn&#039;t terribly conclusive, people&#039;s reaction to it shows their biases that more health care must be a good thing.&lt;/i&gt;

I think people&#039;s reaction in reading Robin&#039;s statement in the most positive light possible, regardless of what the statement is, shows their biases towards Robin as an in-group figure especially towards forgiving and overlooking his own biases, foibles, or tunnel-vision.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I think Robin&#8217;s point is that while the study isn&#8217;t terribly conclusive, people&#8217;s reaction to it shows their biases that more health care must be a good thing.</i></p>
<p>I think people&#8217;s reaction in reading Robin&#8217;s statement in the most positive light possible, regardless of what the statement is, shows their biases towards Robin as an in-group figure especially towards forgiving and overlooking his own biases, foibles, or tunnel-vision.</p>
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		<title>By: steven</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/01/free-medicine-no-help-for-ghanaian-kids.html#comment-389018</link>
		<dc:creator>steven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 21:24:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/01/free-docs-not-help-poor-kids.html#comment-389018</guid>
		<description>If a value is near the edge of the study&#039;s 95% confidence interval, that still means the study provides a fair amount of evidence against that value (relative to the values in the middle of the confidence interval).
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If a value is near the edge of the study&#8217;s 95% confidence interval, that still means the study provides a fair amount of evidence against that value (relative to the values in the middle of the confidence interval).</p>
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		<title>By: Grant</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/01/free-medicine-no-help-for-ghanaian-kids.html#comment-389017</link>
		<dc:creator>Grant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 21:20:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/01/free-docs-not-help-poor-kids.html#comment-389017</guid>
		<description>student, I actually hadn&#039;t noticed the headline. Obviously you&#039;re correct.

Though to be fair to Robin, the issue isn&#039;t whether &quot;health care is good&quot;, its whether or not health care at the margin is good; i.e. what sort of returns does more health care give the patient? Obviously I&#039;d agree that most health care improves health (though this probably wasn&#039;t true throughout most of history).
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>student, I actually hadn&#8217;t noticed the headline. Obviously you&#8217;re correct.</p>
<p>Though to be fair to Robin, the issue isn&#8217;t whether &#8220;health care is good&#8221;, its whether or not health care at the margin is good; i.e. what sort of returns does more health care give the patient? Obviously I&#8217;d agree that most health care improves health (though this probably wasn&#8217;t true throughout most of history).</p>
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		<title>By: a student of economics</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/01/free-medicine-no-help-for-ghanaian-kids.html#comment-389016</link>
		<dc:creator>a student of economics</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 20:49:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/01/free-docs-not-help-poor-kids.html#comment-389016</guid>
		<description>Robin @ 1:08pm: Apparently, the expected rate of malaria-induced anemia is 10% in this population.  The experimental treatment group (with subsidized care) did much, much better than this -- about 3%.   But that&#039;s not the headline.  The reason it was not statistically significantly different from the control group is that, for reasons unexplained and not discussed by the authors, the control group also did much much better than expected.  This is a red flag that there is some large, unexplained, phenomenon affecting the groups, e.g. the Hawthorne effect, or the there is a major flaw in the experimental design.   If you run an controlled experiment, and the control behaves far differently than expected and you don&#039;t know why, then it raises questions about the reliability of the study design, execution and results.

Furthermore, the difference in healthcare utilization was only 12% between the groups.  But we can&#039;t reject a difference of as much as 34% in outcomes.   So, even taking the study as face value, it would be an abuse of statistics to say that they ruled out any effect from treatment.  The study is fully consistent with the small difference in treatment providing a large (30%) improvement in the outcome, making your headline false.

To be precise: this study FAILS to reject the hypothesis that health care has an economically significant (i.e. 30%) effect in this situation.

If you wanted to write an accurate headline, you could say &quot;A published study does not show that free docs help kids and also does not show that they don&#039;t&quot;  but I guess that would hardly be worth blogging about.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin @ 1:08pm: Apparently, the expected rate of malaria-induced anemia is 10% in this population.  The experimental treatment group (with subsidized care) did much, much better than this &#8212; about 3%.   But that&#8217;s not the headline.  The reason it was not statistically significantly different from the control group is that, for reasons unexplained and not discussed by the authors, the control group also did much much better than expected.  This is a red flag that there is some large, unexplained, phenomenon affecting the groups, e.g. the Hawthorne effect, or the there is a major flaw in the experimental design.   If you run an controlled experiment, and the control behaves far differently than expected and you don&#8217;t know why, then it raises questions about the reliability of the study design, execution and results.</p>
<p>Furthermore, the difference in healthcare utilization was only 12% between the groups.  But we can&#8217;t reject a difference of as much as 34% in outcomes.   So, even taking the study as face value, it would be an abuse of statistics to say that they ruled out any effect from treatment.  The study is fully consistent with the small difference in treatment providing a large (30%) improvement in the outcome, making your headline false.</p>
<p>To be precise: this study FAILS to reject the hypothesis that health care has an economically significant (i.e. 30%) effect in this situation.</p>
<p>If you wanted to write an accurate headline, you could say &#8220;A published study does not show that free docs help kids and also does not show that they don&#8217;t&#8221;  but I guess that would hardly be worth blogging about.</p>
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		<title>By: frelkins</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/01/free-medicine-no-help-for-ghanaian-kids.html#comment-389015</link>
		<dc:creator>frelkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 19:39:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/01/free-docs-not-help-poor-kids.html#comment-389015</guid>
		<description>@Carl

&quot;&lt;em&gt;Fortune&lt;/em&gt;&quot;

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/06/odd_kid_names.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Indeed&lt;/a&gt;. Why does even &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAbc_6GSavk&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Ozawa&lt;/a&gt; cheap out on all 8 kettledrums &amp; 2 full-sized concert gongs? It&#039;s the only way Orff&#039;s lack of taste can at least acquire grandeur! As Empress of the World I deserve no less - does he really expect me to make do with only 6 kettledrums, 1 small gong, and 1 medium cymbal? C&#039;mon everybody, weep with me.

&quot;&lt;em&gt;with tens of billions of dollars&lt;/em&gt;&quot;

No way it&#039;s gonna cost that much, Carl, which is the point. Sugar pills &amp;  grandmothers are cheap and at least do no harm. Let&#039;s have the courage to benefit society by actually Being Hansonian. Health care appears at our current stage to be as much signaling as science. Maybe more signaling than science. Robin can weigh in on that, not I.

Fulfilling all the requisite signals seems easy to do, and would thus improve many if not most health outcomes. So why don&#039;t we? Are we not truth seeking here or what?




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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Carl</p>
<p>&#8220;<em>Fortune</em>&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/06/odd_kid_names.html" rel="nofollow">Indeed</a>. Why does even <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAbc_6GSavk" rel="nofollow">Ozawa</a> cheap out on all 8 kettledrums &#038; 2 full-sized concert gongs? It&#8217;s the only way Orff&#8217;s lack of taste can at least acquire grandeur! As Empress of the World I deserve no less &#8211; does he really expect me to make do with only 6 kettledrums, 1 small gong, and 1 medium cymbal? C&#8217;mon everybody, weep with me.</p>
<p>&#8220;<em>with tens of billions of dollars</em>&#8221;</p>
<p>No way it&#8217;s gonna cost that much, Carl, which is the point. Sugar pills &#038;  grandmothers are cheap and at least do no harm. Let&#8217;s have the courage to benefit society by actually Being Hansonian. Health care appears at our current stage to be as much signaling as science. Maybe more signaling than science. Robin can weigh in on that, not I.</p>
<p>Fulfilling all the requisite signals seems easy to do, and would thus improve many if not most health outcomes. So why don&#8217;t we? Are we not truth seeking here or what?</p>
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		<title>By: a student of economics</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/01/free-medicine-no-help-for-ghanaian-kids.html#comment-389014</link>
		<dc:creator>a student of economics</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 19:08:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/01/free-docs-not-help-poor-kids.html#comment-389014</guid>
		<description>Grant says: &lt;i&gt;&quot;Robin&#039;s point is that while the study isn&#039;t terribly conclusive...&quot; &lt;/i&gt;

Is that why his bold-face headline states this unambiguous, if ungrammatical, conclusion: &quot;Free Docs Not Help Poor Kids&quot;?

&lt;i&gt;&quot;...it shows their biases that more health care must be a good thing&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Uh, yes, my bias is that health care usually has an effect on health.    Studies which claim otherwise are counterintuitive to most people though not to Robin (&quot;I am, alas, not surprised&quot;).  One would expect a high powered, well designed study with clear results before making such a claim.

On the contrary, as noted, according to conventional statistical standards, this study cannot conclude that a small amount (12%) of additional health care does not improve health by as much as 34%, contrary to Robin&#039;s misleading headline.

My prior belief before seeing study:  health care probably improves health.
My updated belief after seeing study and Robin&#039;s analysis: health care probably improves health.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Grant says: <i>&#8220;Robin&#8217;s point is that while the study isn&#8217;t terribly conclusive&#8230;&#8221; </i></p>
<p>Is that why his bold-face headline states this unambiguous, if ungrammatical, conclusion: &#8220;Free Docs Not Help Poor Kids&#8221;?</p>
<p><i>&#8220;&#8230;it shows their biases that more health care must be a good thing&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Uh, yes, my bias is that health care usually has an effect on health.    Studies which claim otherwise are counterintuitive to most people though not to Robin (&#8220;I am, alas, not surprised&#8221;).  One would expect a high powered, well designed study with clear results before making such a claim.</p>
<p>On the contrary, as noted, according to conventional statistical standards, this study cannot conclude that a small amount (12%) of additional health care does not improve health by as much as 34%, contrary to Robin&#8217;s misleading headline.</p>
<p>My prior belief before seeing study:  health care probably improves health.<br />
My updated belief after seeing study and Robin&#8217;s analysis: health care probably improves health.</p>
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		<title>By: Grant</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/01/free-medicine-no-help-for-ghanaian-kids.html#comment-389013</link>
		<dc:creator>Grant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 17:37:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/01/free-docs-not-help-poor-kids.html#comment-389013</guid>
		<description>student, I think Robin&#039;s point is that while the study isn&#039;t terribly conclusive, people&#039;s reaction to it shows their biases that more health care must be a good thing.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>student, I think Robin&#8217;s point is that while the study isn&#8217;t terribly conclusive, people&#8217;s reaction to it shows their biases that more health care must be a good thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/01/free-medicine-no-help-for-ghanaian-kids.html#comment-389012</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 17:08:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/01/free-docs-not-help-poor-kids.html#comment-389012</guid>
		<description>Billy, care to cite a better randomized trial on &quot;the payoff of various health care interventions in African nations, showing benefits&quot;?

student, I don&#039;t understand why you think their excessively-pessimistic initial estimate of outcomes means we can&#039;t conclude much from the study.  Chicken-little overestimates of problems are pretty standard in this area.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Billy, care to cite a better randomized trial on &#8220;the payoff of various health care interventions in African nations, showing benefits&#8221;?</p>
<p>student, I don&#8217;t understand why you think their excessively-pessimistic initial estimate of outcomes means we can&#8217;t conclude much from the study.  Chicken-little overestimates of problems are pretty standard in this area.</p>
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		<title>By: billswift</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/01/free-medicine-no-help-for-ghanaian-kids.html#comment-389011</link>
		<dc:creator>billswift</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 17:04:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2009/01/free-docs-not-help-poor-kids.html#comment-389011</guid>
		<description>I read something a few years ago that said providing window and door screens would have more impact on health in Africa than all the other medical spending combined, but that it isn&#039;t done because it isn&#039;t fancy or prestigious enough for the providers of aid to actually do.  (Sorry can&#039;t remember the source, not even whether it was Web or a book.)
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read something a few years ago that said providing window and door screens would have more impact on health in Africa than all the other medical spending combined, but that it isn&#8217;t done because it isn&#8217;t fancy or prestigious enough for the providers of aid to actually do.  (Sorry can&#8217;t remember the source, not even whether it was Web or a book.)</p>
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