Comments on: What Belief Conformity?

By: Arnold Williams

Arnold Williams — Fri, 14 Nov 2008 12:52:27 +0000

I note that in pursuit of rationality, you throw morality overboard. I would point out that most people “with experience of the world” value morality more highly than rationality, and that your advice would strike them as “one of those Western things.”

To elaborate, check out Jonathan Haidt in http://faculty.virginia.edu/haidtlab/articles/haidt.graham.planet-of-the-durkheimians.doc (copy link, I don’t know this interface’s version of html), or check out the research generally at http://people.virginia.edu/~jdh6n/moraljudgment.html

By: frelkins

frelkins — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 03:45:52 +0000

@M Webster

The OSCON07 talk is just key – sorry for the typo. The full link (damn you, Typepad!) is http://blip.tv/file/318231/

No, the disagreement paper doesn’t really accompany Robin’s speech, but is its background.

“I desire only to know the truth. . . .And, to the utmost of my power, I exhort all other men to do the same. . . .I exhort you also to take part in the great combat, which is the combat of life, and greater than every other earthly conflict.”

Socrates, The Gorgias

By: michael webster

michael webster — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 02:56:55 +0000

@Frelkins. Thanks for the references, but the first link doesn’t work. I presume that the powerpoint accompanied the talk that the first link was supposed to point to.

@Robin. Thanks. Does it follow from your view that I cannot rationally expect to be part of an elite group, which prides itself on being small and exclusive? The Groucho Marx hypothesis, if you will.

By: billswift

billswift — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 22:40:23 +0000

What advice? Don’t do any more evil than you need to? Defense is better than retaliation? Avoiding attack is even better than defending one? Those are all obvious to anyone who has actually lived in the real world, rather than the fantasyland of academia and the modern middle-class.

My earlier post doesn’t give any advice, it just points out that imposing beliefs on others is evil (because it requires coercion, which can be dangerous if the victim resists).

By: Joseph Hertzlinger

Joseph Hertzlinger — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 22:23:04 +0000

If billswift's advice were sent by chronophone to various past societies, what would it sound like?

By: Joseph Hertzlinger

Joseph Hertzlinger — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 22:15:55 +0000

One reason why a group is likely to acquire uniform irrational beliefs is that the dissenters switch to other groups. If dissenters were to insist on sticking around instead, it will be more difficult for a group to acquire an attitude of “All of us are right and all of them are wrong!”

By: Constant

Constant — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 20:25:02 +0000

Billswift – I was critiquing your argument, not attacking the conclusion. You have (at 3:53) added the new assumption that pro-lifers are not defending anyone – an additional assumption which was not part of the argument I was critiquing. Pro-lifers will, it need hardly be pointed out, disagree with your new assumption, since they consider the unborn child to be someone.

If you say, “you want to impose your beliefs on others”, you are making a statement about the other person’s point of view – about what they want. But if you make an assertion about the other person’s point of view, then you need to consider the other person’s point of view. And from their point of view, the unborn child is someone.

By: billswift

billswift — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 19:53:09 +0000

“then presumably you are, yourself, willing to fight against my imposing my beliefs – and thus are willing to impose your own beliefs on me.”

This is the classic evil bastards’ claim that equates defense with attack. Defending from someone’s prior attempt to coerce me is NOT the same as imposing my beliefs on others.

By: Caledonian

Caledonian — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 19:51:46 +0000

What others believe is not acceptable evidence that can be used to determine your own belief.

If this principle is followed, then looking at others’ beliefs can be a useful heuristic. If it is not, then it’s not a useful heuristic.

The point is not to confuse a useful heuristic with rigorous reasoning. Heuristics are what you use when rigor can’t be obtained. Using them when it’s not appropriate to do so violates reason.

By: billswift

billswift — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 19:48:06 +0000

Yes it is still evil. It is less evil, maybe, depending on how you go about imposing it, than rape is. The better way is for the victim to successfully defend herself, or better yet to prevent attacks. Retaliation is still coercion, even when justified.