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	<title>Comments on: Friendliness Factors</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/friendliness-fa.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: Overcoming Bias : Emulations Go Foom</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/friendliness-fa.html#comment-462341</link>
		<dc:creator>Overcoming Bias : Emulations Go Foom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Dec 2010 01:40:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/11/friendliness-factors.html#comment-462341</guid>
		<description>[...] lower costs, thereby gaining much larger revenues.  Variation in project success would depend on many factors.  These include not only who followed the right key insights on high fidelity emulation and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] lower costs, thereby gaining much larger revenues.  Variation in project success would depend on many factors.  These include not only who followed the right key insights on high fidelity emulation and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Hyphen</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/friendliness-fa.html#comment-392568</link>
		<dc:creator>Hyphen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 07:21:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/11/friendliness-factors.html#comment-392568</guid>
		<description>Tim Tyler: Google&#039;s page rank algorithm *is* released. You can read the reasonably-descriptive patent for it at http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?patentnumber=6285999

There are also many more, clearer descriptions available if you google &quot;page rank algorithm&quot;

Of course there are many details that have not been released but the meaty part is public knowledge.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim Tyler: Google&#8217;s page rank algorithm *is* released. You can read the reasonably-descriptive patent for it at <a href="http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?patentnumber=6285999" rel="nofollow">http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?patentnumber=6285999</a></p>
<p>There are also many more, clearer descriptions available if you google &#8220;page rank algorithm&#8221;</p>
<p>Of course there are many details that have not been released but the meaty part is public knowledge.</p>
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		<title>By: Jed Harris</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/friendliness-fa.html#comment-392567</link>
		<dc:creator>Jed Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 18:59:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/11/friendliness-factors.html#comment-392567</guid>
		<description>Last comment for now:

The particular distinctions between &quot;firms&quot;, &quot;products&quot;, &quot;standards&quot; and &quot;innovations&quot; implicit in this post are an artifact of our current social arrangements.  In particular the ability of &quot;firms&quot; to internalize &quot;resources&quot; proportionate to their &quot;wins&quot; is very specific to institutions, and varies greatly even within our current economy.  Internalization of value created is very low in the internet space, for example.

Also the post implicitly assumes that the various firms are trying to &quot;win&quot; by competing.  Typically firms will try to differentiate, so that they &quot;win&quot; by moving away from their competitors in niche space.

The result is that very often innovation occurs through finding and dominating new niches rather than through making an existing product better or cheaper to produce.  Improving existing products or production methods tends to be due to learning curve effects in which there are many very small innovations, which are typically disseminated throughout the industry fairly quickly.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Last comment for now:</p>
<p>The particular distinctions between &#8220;firms&#8221;, &#8220;products&#8221;, &#8220;standards&#8221; and &#8220;innovations&#8221; implicit in this post are an artifact of our current social arrangements.  In particular the ability of &#8220;firms&#8221; to internalize &#8220;resources&#8221; proportionate to their &#8220;wins&#8221; is very specific to institutions, and varies greatly even within our current economy.  Internalization of value created is very low in the internet space, for example.</p>
<p>Also the post implicitly assumes that the various firms are trying to &#8220;win&#8221; by competing.  Typically firms will try to differentiate, so that they &#8220;win&#8221; by moving away from their competitors in niche space.</p>
<p>The result is that very often innovation occurs through finding and dominating new niches rather than through making an existing product better or cheaper to produce.  Improving existing products or production methods tends to be due to learning curve effects in which there are many very small innovations, which are typically disseminated throughout the industry fairly quickly.</p>
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		<title>By: Jed Harris</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/friendliness-fa.html#comment-392566</link>
		<dc:creator>Jed Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 18:42:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/11/friendliness-factors.html#comment-392566</guid>
		<description>Also I think (7) and (8) (information transfer) are extremely important, as is somewhat suggested by the number of comments related to them already.

I&#039;d add another related point, modularity, which is essential to allowing offerings to evolve incrementally.  This can cut both ways depending on the amount of information transfer.

There&#039;s a somewhat counter-intuitive pattern here.  If a single design becomes dominant, usually but not always through network effects, that greatly enhances information transfer (as implied by (8)).  So often a single &quot;firm&quot; becoming totally dominant can create a playing field in which success variance is low due to information transfer.


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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also I think (7) and (8) (information transfer) are extremely important, as is somewhat suggested by the number of comments related to them already.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d add another related point, modularity, which is essential to allowing offerings to evolve incrementally.  This can cut both ways depending on the amount of information transfer.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a somewhat counter-intuitive pattern here.  If a single design becomes dominant, usually but not always through network effects, that greatly enhances information transfer (as implied by (8)).  So often a single &#8220;firm&#8221; becoming totally dominant can create a playing field in which success variance is low due to information transfer.</p>
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		<title>By: Jed Harris</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/friendliness-fa.html#comment-392565</link>
		<dc:creator>Jed Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 18:35:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/11/friendliness-factors.html#comment-392565</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m surprised that no one has mentioned network effects, since these have often (recently) led to a single dominant player in some markets (e.g. Microsoft) and also explain the dominance of some standards, practices (e.g. English) and maybe even the genetic code.

Arguably network effects could be subsumed under (2) but the issue isn&#039;t resources, as (2) states, but enhanced value for customers based on use by other customers.


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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m surprised that no one has mentioned network effects, since these have often (recently) led to a single dominant player in some markets (e.g. Microsoft) and also explain the dominance of some standards, practices (e.g. English) and maybe even the genetic code.</p>
<p>Arguably network effects could be subsumed under (2) but the issue isn&#8217;t resources, as (2) states, but enhanced value for customers based on use by other customers.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Tyler</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/friendliness-fa.html#comment-392564</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Tyler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 18:28:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/11/friendliness-factors.html#comment-392564</guid>
		<description>&lt;BLOCKQUOTE&gt;&lt;EM&gt;I attribute this mainly to info becoming much leakier&lt;/EM&gt;&lt;/BLOCKQUOTE&gt;

Uh huh. Call us when Google release their page rank algorithm - or when you find out the details of how James Harris Simons handles his investments. That is the type of &quot;leaklessness&quot; we should be concerned with. It seems pretty leakless to me - and I see no sign it is getting &quot;leakier&quot; as time passes.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p><em>I attribute this mainly to info becoming much leakier</em></p></blockquote>
<p>Uh huh. Call us when Google release their page rank algorithm &#8211; or when you find out the details of how James Harris Simons handles his investments. That is the type of &#8220;leaklessness&#8221; we should be concerned with. It seems pretty leakless to me &#8211; and I see no sign it is getting &#8220;leakier&#8221; as time passes.</p>
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		<title>By: Vladimir Nesov</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/friendliness-fa.html#comment-392563</link>
		<dc:creator>Vladimir Nesov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 18:25:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/11/friendliness-factors.html#comment-392563</guid>
		<description>Robin Hanson:
&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;If you worry that one competitor will severely dominate all others in the next really big innovation, forcing you to worry about its &quot;friendliness,&quot; you should want to promote factors that reduce success variance.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;Worrying about Friendliness is orthogonal to whether dominating dynamic is a &quot;single&quot; winner, or a whole economy of competing players. It&#039;s the risk of dominating dynamic doing (irreversible) damage that is the problem. In low-tech environment it&#039;s reduced by having little power, whatever you do with it; in mid-tech environment like ours by human control at all stages, barely sufficient to prevent serious catastrophes; in higher-power environment you&#039;d need a Friendly AI to correctly guide the tech, using carefully calculated planning rather than now-fatal adversarial dynamic. So, reducing the progress towards extremely powerful technology is the only way to postpone the problem of Friendliness (not that I believe at this point it could seriously help).

Reduced success variance contributes minimally to this effect, and I&#039;m not even sure it contributes in the right direction.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin Hanson:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;If you worry that one competitor will severely dominate all others in the next really big innovation, forcing you to worry about its &#8220;friendliness,&#8221; you should want to promote factors that reduce success variance.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>Worrying about Friendliness is orthogonal to whether dominating dynamic is a &#8220;single&#8221; winner, or a whole economy of competing players. It&#8217;s the risk of dominating dynamic doing (irreversible) damage that is the problem. In low-tech environment it&#8217;s reduced by having little power, whatever you do with it; in mid-tech environment like ours by human control at all stages, barely sufficient to prevent serious catastrophes; in higher-power environment you&#8217;d need a Friendly AI to correctly guide the tech, using carefully calculated planning rather than now-fatal adversarial dynamic. So, reducing the progress towards extremely powerful technology is the only way to postpone the problem of Friendliness (not that I believe at this point it could seriously help).</p>
<p>Reduced success variance contributes minimally to this effect, and I&#8217;m not even sure it contributes in the right direction.</p>
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		<title>By: frelkins</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/friendliness-fa.html#comment-392562</link>
		<dc:creator>frelkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 18:19:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/11/friendliness-factors.html#comment-392562</guid>
		<description>@Robin

Do you count domain knowledge and a flexible culture of innovation as &quot;resources?&quot; If not, I would suggest these as factors.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Robin</p>
<p>Do you count domain knowledge and a flexible culture of innovation as &#8220;resources?&#8221; If not, I would suggest these as factors.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/friendliness-fa.html#comment-392561</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 17:53:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/11/friendliness-factors.html#comment-392561</guid>
		<description>Alex, I think of sharing people as a way of sharing info.

Eliezer, I edited the list to include many of your suggestions.  Not sure I understand &quot;recursivity.&quot;  I don&#039;t see that AIs have more cumulative advantage than human tool teams, and I suspect this CA concept is better broken into components.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alex, I think of sharing people as a way of sharing info.</p>
<p>Eliezer, I edited the list to include many of your suggestions.  Not sure I understand &#8220;recursivity.&#8221;  I don&#8217;t see that AIs have more cumulative advantage than human tool teams, and I suspect this CA concept is better broken into components.</p>
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		<title>By: Eliezer Yudkowsky</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/friendliness-fa.html#comment-392560</link>
		<dc:creator>Eliezer Yudkowsky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 17:15:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/11/friendliness-factors.html#comment-392560</guid>
		<description>Rivalness / Exclusivity - a good design can in principle be used by more than one actor, unless patents prevent it.  Vs., one AI that takes over all the poorly defended computing power on the Internet may then defend it against other AIs.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rivalness / Exclusivity &#8211; a good design can in principle be used by more than one actor, unless patents prevent it.  Vs., one AI that takes over all the poorly defended computing power on the Internet may then defend it against other AIs.</p>
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