<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Conformity Shows Loyalty</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/conformity-show.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/conformity-show.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 11 Feb 2012 23:23:58 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.3</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Michael F. Martin</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/conformity-show.html#comment-392847</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael F. Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:44:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/11/conformity-shows-loyalty.html#comment-392847</guid>
		<description>Does this approach to overcoming bias presuppose methodological individualism?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does this approach to overcoming bias presuppose methodological individualism?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Bill Spickerman</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/conformity-show.html#comment-392846</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Spickerman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 15:16:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/11/conformity-shows-loyalty.html#comment-392846</guid>
		<description>Are we as humans NOT social beings?  Without some allegiance to conformity, how would be exist?  I agree totally with this statement:

&quot;You just can&#039;t fight &quot;conformity&quot; by indulging the evil pleasure of enjoying your conformity to a small tight-knit group of &quot;non-conformists.&quot;  All this does is promote some groups at the expense of other groups, and poisons your mind in the process.  It is like fighting &quot;loyalty&quot; by dogged devotion to an anti-loyalty alliance.&quot;
IMO to be a true non-conformist, I would have to live alone isloated from all humanity, to do anything else would be conforming behavior.

Bill





</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are we as humans NOT social beings?  Without some allegiance to conformity, how would be exist?  I agree totally with this statement:</p>
<p>&#8220;You just can&#8217;t fight &#8220;conformity&#8221; by indulging the evil pleasure of enjoying your conformity to a small tight-knit group of &#8220;non-conformists.&#8221;  All this does is promote some groups at the expense of other groups, and poisons your mind in the process.  It is like fighting &#8220;loyalty&#8221; by dogged devotion to an anti-loyalty alliance.&#8221;<br />
IMO to be a true non-conformist, I would have to live alone isloated from all humanity, to do anything else would be conforming behavior.</p>
<p>Bill</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Hopefully Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/conformity-show.html#comment-392845</link>
		<dc:creator>Hopefully Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 09:55:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/11/conformity-shows-loyalty.html#comment-392845</guid>
		<description>Stuart,
A case can be made that an individual suspicious tax collector or overconfident business person would most likely get worse results, since they&#039;re operating with a distorted map. I think the argument (at least with business) is that society as a whole is enriched by having a bunch of people overconfident enough to have individually undiversified business plans. I think that&#039;s the stronger case for encouraging individually irrational behavior in segments of society -the behavior doesn&#039;t seem to become individually rational without substantial redistribution of wealth, it seems to me (not that I&#039;m advocating for that).
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stuart,<br />
A case can be made that an individual suspicious tax collector or overconfident business person would most likely get worse results, since they&#8217;re operating with a distorted map. I think the argument (at least with business) is that society as a whole is enriched by having a bunch of people overconfident enough to have individually undiversified business plans. I think that&#8217;s the stronger case for encouraging individually irrational behavior in segments of society -the behavior doesn&#8217;t seem to become individually rational without substantial redistribution of wealth, it seems to me (not that I&#8217;m advocating for that).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Stuart Armstrong</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/conformity-show.html#comment-392844</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Armstrong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 09:24:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/11/conformity-shows-loyalty.html#comment-392844</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Stuart, I&#039;m not convinced you need massive overconfidence in a business venture to make it work.&lt;/i&gt;

You need to project massive confidence - much easier to do if you are overconfident (so you&#039;d expect to find much more overconfidence in business ventures than in general). Even if you&#039;re just projecting confidence, it does put you in a situation similar to the one you described: you are claiming certain beliefs, and the important thing is the content of the beliefs, not their truths.

Similar examples in auditors, tax inspectors, some scientific situations, and many institutionalised checks and balance: for the situation to work, people need to act as if they had certain beliefs (that this company is hiding something in their books, say) before knowing anything about their truth. A suspicious tax inspector would get better results than one whose beliefs are more accurate.

Anyway, not strictly relevant to your post, but relevant to the general thread behind it.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Stuart, I&#8217;m not convinced you need massive overconfidence in a business venture to make it work.</i></p>
<p>You need to project massive confidence &#8211; much easier to do if you are overconfident (so you&#8217;d expect to find much more overconfidence in business ventures than in general). Even if you&#8217;re just projecting confidence, it does put you in a situation similar to the one you described: you are claiming certain beliefs, and the important thing is the content of the beliefs, not their truths.</p>
<p>Similar examples in auditors, tax inspectors, some scientific situations, and many institutionalised checks and balance: for the situation to work, people need to act as if they had certain beliefs (that this company is hiding something in their books, say) before knowing anything about their truth. A suspicious tax inspector would get better results than one whose beliefs are more accurate.</p>
<p>Anyway, not strictly relevant to your post, but relevant to the general thread behind it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jordan</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/conformity-show.html#comment-392843</link>
		<dc:creator>Jordan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 16:27:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/11/conformity-shows-loyalty.html#comment-392843</guid>
		<description>The tone of the quote and the close line &quot;All hail&quot; are very reminiscent of Discordianism. The idea, as I read it, is to at once point out the problem (too much irrational group loyalty) and simultaneously refute the natural tendency one might use to fight the problem (more group loyalty, or the ALU here) via tongue-in-cheek satire.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The tone of the quote and the close line &#8220;All hail&#8221; are very reminiscent of Discordianism. The idea, as I read it, is to at once point out the problem (too much irrational group loyalty) and simultaneously refute the natural tendency one might use to fight the problem (more group loyalty, or the ALU here) via tongue-in-cheek satire.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: billswift</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/conformity-show.html#comment-392842</link>
		<dc:creator>billswift</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 15:21:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/11/conformity-shows-loyalty.html#comment-392842</guid>
		<description>What he seemed to mean was that in-group/out-group differences would move more to human/nonHuman if there were a nonHuman threat rather than being human in-groups versus human out-groups.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What he seemed to mean was that in-group/out-group differences would move more to human/nonHuman if there were a nonHuman threat rather than being human in-groups versus human out-groups.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Michael Howard</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/conformity-show.html#comment-392841</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Howard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 13:35:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/11/conformity-shows-loyalty.html#comment-392841</guid>
		<description>Robin (emphasis mine):
&lt;blockquote&gt;We rarely bother to show loyalty to humanity as a whole, &lt;i&gt;&lt;b&gt;because non-humans threaten little.&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Why do you believe that&#039;s the reason? Would you expect more sacrifice for the species as a whole at the expense of ourselves/in-groups if non-human life was a greater threat?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin (emphasis mine):</p>
<blockquote><p>We rarely bother to show loyalty to humanity as a whole, <i><b>because non-humans threaten little.</b></i></p></blockquote>
<p>Why do you believe that&#8217;s the reason? Would you expect more sacrifice for the species as a whole at the expense of ourselves/in-groups if non-human life was a greater threat?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jef Allbright</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/conformity-show.html#comment-392840</link>
		<dc:creator>Jef Allbright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 13:25:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/11/conformity-shows-loyalty.html#comment-392840</guid>
		<description>Conflict is necessary to increasing cooperation, problems are necessary to increasing creativity, risk is necessary to survival strategies, variation is necessary to evolution, and fundamentally, entropy is necessary to increasing synergies.

Summarized rather nicely in &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/biot.2008.3.1.17&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this recent paper&lt;/a&gt; as &quot;self-organization proposes what natural selection disposes.&quot;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Conflict is necessary to increasing cooperation, problems are necessary to increasing creativity, risk is necessary to survival strategies, variation is necessary to evolution, and fundamentally, entropy is necessary to increasing synergies.</p>
<p>Summarized rather nicely in <a href="http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/biot.2008.3.1.17" rel="nofollow">this recent paper</a> as &#8220;self-organization proposes what natural selection disposes.&#8221;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Anibal</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/conformity-show.html#comment-392839</link>
		<dc:creator>Anibal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 11:54:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/11/conformity-shows-loyalty.html#comment-392839</guid>
		<description>This is an eternal global problem in social coordination.

How to balance the two antognist forces that shape individual social behaviour.

On the one hand, the necessity to be the one and only , different from the rest, and on the other hand, the necessity to be part of the group and be accepted.

I believe we just have to learn to live with it. Why some people are more conformists and other non-conformists and in between know something about it, would not lead us to predict social outrages, riots, revolutions...
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is an eternal global problem in social coordination.</p>
<p>How to balance the two antognist forces that shape individual social behaviour.</p>
<p>On the one hand, the necessity to be the one and only , different from the rest, and on the other hand, the necessity to be part of the group and be accepted.</p>
<p>I believe we just have to learn to live with it. Why some people are more conformists and other non-conformists and in between know something about it, would not lead us to predict social outrages, riots, revolutions&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/conformity-show.html#comment-392838</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 11:36:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/11/conformity-shows-loyalty.html#comment-392838</guid>
		<description>Jacob, human-squirrel divisiveness cannot be tolerated; mammals must remain united against the insects!

Denis, yes I have first-hand experience.

Eric, if you actually have evidence for you odd views, you should expect to live among an institution that encourages authorities to review your evidence and then be convinced.

Talisman, Asch thought he found an encouraging amount of independent thinking among his subjects.

Stuart, I&#039;m not convinced you need massive overconfidence in a business venture to make it work.

Gary, human nature is not infinitely flexible, but it does flex enough to make it worth searching for better ways of being human.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jacob, human-squirrel divisiveness cannot be tolerated; mammals must remain united against the insects!</p>
<p>Denis, yes I have first-hand experience.</p>
<p>Eric, if you actually have evidence for you odd views, you should expect to live among an institution that encourages authorities to review your evidence and then be convinced.</p>
<p>Talisman, Asch thought he found an encouraging amount of independent thinking among his subjects.</p>
<p>Stuart, I&#8217;m not convinced you need massive overconfidence in a business venture to make it work.</p>
<p>Gary, human nature is not infinitely flexible, but it does flex enough to make it worth searching for better ways of being human.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

<!-- Performance optimized by W3 Total Cache. Learn more: http://www.w3-edge.com/wordpress-plugins/

Page Caching using disk (enhanced)
Database Caching using disk
Object Caching 438/455 objects using disk
Content Delivery Network via Amazon Web Services: S3: overcomingbias-assets.s3.amazonaws.com

Served from: www.overcomingbias.com @ 2012-02-11 19:10:35 -->
