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	<title>Comments on: Beliefs Require Reasons, or: Is the Pope Catholic?  Should he be?</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/beliefs-require.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: Unknown</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/beliefs-require.html#comment-391838</link>
		<dc:creator>Unknown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Nov 2008 10:26:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/11/beliefs-require-reasons-or-is-the-pope-catholic-should-he-be.html#comment-391838</guid>
		<description>Alan: forgiveness is supposed to happen only if you repent. Since when do your enemies repent?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alan: forgiveness is supposed to happen only if you repent. Since when do your enemies repent?</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Crowe</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/beliefs-require.html#comment-391837</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Crowe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Nov 2008 09:14:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/11/beliefs-require-reasons-or-is-the-pope-catholic-should-he-be.html#comment-391837</guid>
		<description>Forgiveness is a nice thing to believe in provided you don&#039;t follow through the implications. You are enjoying believing that your enemies will meet a sticky end due to not being forgive. You are enjoying believing that God will let you off with your own sins. This had better be happening in a  mental ghetto in which dots get left unjoined or its not going to deliver emotional satisfaction.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Forgiveness is a nice thing to believe in provided you don&#8217;t follow through the implications. You are enjoying believing that your enemies will meet a sticky end due to not being forgive. You are enjoying believing that God will let you off with your own sins. This had better be happening in a  mental ghetto in which dots get left unjoined or its not going to deliver emotional satisfaction.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug S.</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/beliefs-require.html#comment-391836</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Nov 2008 05:26:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/11/beliefs-require-reasons-or-is-the-pope-catholic-should-he-be.html#comment-391836</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;One point in favour of this theory is that it solves the puzzle of the buggered altar boy. The puzzle is that the sexual misconduct is committed by some-one who thinks that they face eternal damnation for their sins. How does that work? If you really believed in eternal damnation and you were feeling temptations that were gradually gaining the upperhand, you would have a nervous breakdown.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Isn&#039;t that what &quot;forgiveness&quot; is for? Merely confess your sins and repent, and all will be forgiven...
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>One point in favour of this theory is that it solves the puzzle of the buggered altar boy. The puzzle is that the sexual misconduct is committed by some-one who thinks that they face eternal damnation for their sins. How does that work? If you really believed in eternal damnation and you were feeling temptations that were gradually gaining the upperhand, you would have a nervous breakdown.</p></blockquote>
<p>Isn&#8217;t that what &#8220;forgiveness&#8221; is for? Merely confess your sins and repent, and all will be forgiven&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Unknown</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/beliefs-require.html#comment-391835</link>
		<dc:creator>Unknown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Nov 2008 05:06:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/11/beliefs-require-reasons-or-is-the-pope-catholic-should-he-be.html#comment-391835</guid>
		<description>Manon de Gaillande: regarding that thousand dollars, what, in theory, would you consider to be evidence that the Pope does think that belief requires reasons?

And in any case, no human being has well calibrated probability assessments, and so in this sense there is no human being who does not &quot;nudge&quot; his probability assessments without evidence, whether he wishes to or not.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Manon de Gaillande: regarding that thousand dollars, what, in theory, would you consider to be evidence that the Pope does think that belief requires reasons?</p>
<p>And in any case, no human being has well calibrated probability assessments, and so in this sense there is no human being who does not &#8220;nudge&#8221; his probability assessments without evidence, whether he wishes to or not.</p>
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		<title>By: Manon de Gaillande</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/beliefs-require.html#comment-391834</link>
		<dc:creator>Manon de Gaillande</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 18:48:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/11/beliefs-require-reasons-or-is-the-pope-catholic-should-he-be.html#comment-391834</guid>
		<description>Realizing beliefs require reasons is hard. As in, humanity stayed a few millions years before starting to suspect it. Most of us have a gut feeling wishful thinking works. Before I read Eliezer&#039;s sequence on evidence as interaction causing correlation and minds as engines and knowledge as negentropy, I wasn&#039;t fully conviced beliefs required evidence. And it&#039;s long and hard to explain, due to huge inferential distances. A thousand dollars say the pope doesn&#039;t really think beliefs require reasons - he may or may not say it, but he nudges his probability assesments without actual evidence. So why should he act like his beliefs needed reasons?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Realizing beliefs require reasons is hard. As in, humanity stayed a few millions years before starting to suspect it. Most of us have a gut feeling wishful thinking works. Before I read Eliezer&#8217;s sequence on evidence as interaction causing correlation and minds as engines and knowledge as negentropy, I wasn&#8217;t fully conviced beliefs required evidence. And it&#8217;s long and hard to explain, due to huge inferential distances. A thousand dollars say the pope doesn&#8217;t really think beliefs require reasons &#8211; he may or may not say it, but he nudges his probability assesments without actual evidence. So why should he act like his beliefs needed reasons?</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Crowe</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/beliefs-require.html#comment-391833</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Crowe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 16:21:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/11/beliefs-require-reasons-or-is-the-pope-catholic-should-he-be.html#comment-391833</guid>
		<description>I think there are tricky issues in cognitive architecture that make one expect beliefs without reasons. Consider the following naive architecture for an artificial intelligence: it has a database and an inference engine. A well know problem is that a contradiction implies anything. Any contradiction becomes a time bomb. Deductions burn fuse. Eventually the contradictions start showing up everywhere and the AI suffers a total credulity crash.

The problem is a problem with logic itself, which is brittle. Any form of intelligence needs hardening against contradictions. So all functioning intelligences probably &quot;implication barriers&quot; and &quot;chain length limits&quot; to stop contradictions propagating and crashing the system.

In mammals, thinking seems bolted on, on top of a short term reward system, and beliefs have emotional impact; that is part of how the brain works. What happens to beliefs that are within implication barriers?

The thinker cannot adjust them to correspond to reality because he does not draw their implications. That means he cannot check their implications against reality. On the other hand he doesn&#039;t act on their implications, so there is a certain freedom of choice, due to lack of consequences for worldy action. One expects the thinker to chose the beliefs that are most emotionally satisfying. Religion is about wireheading the implication barriers.

One point in favour of this theory is that it solves the puzzle of the buggered altar boy. The puzzle is that the sexual misconduct is committed by some-one who thinks that they face eternal damnation for their sins. How does that work? If you really believed in eternal damnation and you were feeling temptations that were gradually gaining the upperhand, you would have a nervous breakdown.

The answer is that the belief is behind an implication barrier. It is pleasant, perhaps, to believe that ones meagre rewards in this life will be topped up in the next and that your enemies will answer for their crimes, if not now, eventually. But one does not draw implications. One does not think: I know, I&#039;ll commit suicide and get to heaven sooner,... Nor does one think: if I give in to tempation, and since I know that people who give in to temptation are damned, then the implication is that I will be damned too.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there are tricky issues in cognitive architecture that make one expect beliefs without reasons. Consider the following naive architecture for an artificial intelligence: it has a database and an inference engine. A well know problem is that a contradiction implies anything. Any contradiction becomes a time bomb. Deductions burn fuse. Eventually the contradictions start showing up everywhere and the AI suffers a total credulity crash.</p>
<p>The problem is a problem with logic itself, which is brittle. Any form of intelligence needs hardening against contradictions. So all functioning intelligences probably &#8220;implication barriers&#8221; and &#8220;chain length limits&#8221; to stop contradictions propagating and crashing the system.</p>
<p>In mammals, thinking seems bolted on, on top of a short term reward system, and beliefs have emotional impact; that is part of how the brain works. What happens to beliefs that are within implication barriers?</p>
<p>The thinker cannot adjust them to correspond to reality because he does not draw their implications. That means he cannot check their implications against reality. On the other hand he doesn&#8217;t act on their implications, so there is a certain freedom of choice, due to lack of consequences for worldy action. One expects the thinker to chose the beliefs that are most emotionally satisfying. Religion is about wireheading the implication barriers.</p>
<p>One point in favour of this theory is that it solves the puzzle of the buggered altar boy. The puzzle is that the sexual misconduct is committed by some-one who thinks that they face eternal damnation for their sins. How does that work? If you really believed in eternal damnation and you were feeling temptations that were gradually gaining the upperhand, you would have a nervous breakdown.</p>
<p>The answer is that the belief is behind an implication barrier. It is pleasant, perhaps, to believe that ones meagre rewards in this life will be topped up in the next and that your enemies will answer for their crimes, if not now, eventually. But one does not draw implications. One does not think: I know, I&#8217;ll commit suicide and get to heaven sooner,&#8230; Nor does one think: if I give in to tempation, and since I know that people who give in to temptation are damned, then the implication is that I will be damned too.</p>
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		<title>By: mtraven</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/beliefs-require.html#comment-391832</link>
		<dc:creator>mtraven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 15:34:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/11/beliefs-require-reasons-or-is-the-pope-catholic-should-he-be.html#comment-391832</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;One might reinterpret religion to strip away the propositional content, but then one loses everything that makes religion different from any random social activity.&lt;/i&gt;
This couldn&#039;t be wronger.  The propositional content of religion is the least important thing about it.  If propositional content was all there was to religion, science would have vanquished it long ago.

You know, there is a vast body of knowledge on the sociology of religion.  Since this blog is dedicated to big T Truth, you might consult some of it rather than making up stuff just because it sounds good.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>One might reinterpret religion to strip away the propositional content, but then one loses everything that makes religion different from any random social activity.</i><br />
This couldn&#8217;t be wronger.  The propositional content of religion is the least important thing about it.  If propositional content was all there was to religion, science would have vanquished it long ago.</p>
<p>You know, there is a vast body of knowledge on the sociology of religion.  Since this blog is dedicated to big T Truth, you might consult some of it rather than making up stuff just because it sounds good.</p>
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		<title>By: Unknown</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/beliefs-require.html#comment-391831</link>
		<dc:creator>Unknown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 09:36:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/11/beliefs-require-reasons-or-is-the-pope-catholic-should-he-be.html#comment-391831</guid>
		<description>What&#039;s the point in talking about Catholicism if you don&#039;t know anything about it?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s the point in talking about Catholicism if you don&#8217;t know anything about it?</p>
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		<title>By: Peter J</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/beliefs-require.html#comment-391830</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 08:37:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/11/beliefs-require-reasons-or-is-the-pope-catholic-should-he-be.html#comment-391830</guid>
		<description>Greek philosophy&#039;s view on &#039;faith&#039;

&quot;In the teachings of the Bible, in contrast, it is necessary to have faith, utter and uncritical confidence, a conception quite alien to the spirit of Greek philosophy.*&quot;

&quot;* For classical greek philosophy, as for Plato, faith (pistis) is the lowest form of belief, characteristic only of the wholly uneducated, who fail to reflect critically on what they experience or are told. The Jewish-inspired Christian emphasis on faith struck educated pagan observers with astonishment; it represented, in their eyes, the extreme of anti-intellectualism - &#039;foolishness&#039;.&quot;

From page 78 &quot;The Perfectibility of Man&quot; by John Passmore (1970)who is Professor of Philosophy at Australian National University. It is well worth a read if you are interested in the history if ideas (including Catholicism and Reason)
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greek philosophy&#8217;s view on &#8216;faith&#8217;</p>
<p>&#8220;In the teachings of the Bible, in contrast, it is necessary to have faith, utter and uncritical confidence, a conception quite alien to the spirit of Greek philosophy.*&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;* For classical greek philosophy, as for Plato, faith (pistis) is the lowest form of belief, characteristic only of the wholly uneducated, who fail to reflect critically on what they experience or are told. The Jewish-inspired Christian emphasis on faith struck educated pagan observers with astonishment; it represented, in their eyes, the extreme of anti-intellectualism &#8211; &#8216;foolishness&#8217;.&#8221;</p>
<p>From page 78 &#8220;The Perfectibility of Man&#8221; by John Passmore (1970)who is Professor of Philosophy at Australian National University. It is well worth a read if you are interested in the history if ideas (including Catholicism and Reason)</p>
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		<title>By: Utilitarian</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/11/beliefs-require.html#comment-391829</link>
		<dc:creator>Utilitarian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 03:41:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/11/beliefs-require-reasons-or-is-the-pope-catholic-should-he-be.html#comment-391829</guid>
		<description>melchior, I assume &quot;foundational belief&quot; is just another name for &quot;prior&quot;? If so, I interpreted Paul as defending &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/why_common_prio.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Robin&#039;s argument for common priors&lt;/a&gt;. Paul said, &quot;This includes beliefs that are based on un-swamped priors from, e.g., how one was raised.&quot;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>melchior, I assume &#8220;foundational belief&#8221; is just another name for &#8220;prior&#8221;? If so, I interpreted Paul as defending <a href="http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/why_common_prio.html" rel="nofollow">Robin&#8217;s argument for common priors</a>. Paul said, &#8220;This includes beliefs that are based on un-swamped priors from, e.g., how one was raised.&#8221;</p>
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