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	<title>Comments on: Bad Faith Voter Drives</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/10/weathersons-bad.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: Caledonian</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/10/weathersons-bad.html#comment-394848</link>
		<dc:creator>Caledonian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 19:12:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/10/bad-faith-voter-drives.html#comment-394848</guid>
		<description>Look, this is really fairly simple.

Would the gentleman in question still be encouraging the students to vote if he knew the majority of them would favor McCain rather than Obama?  If he&#039;d still do it, then his concern is with increasing voting activity.  If he wouldn&#039;t, then he&#039;s just trying to increase the power of his favored candidate.

Of course, if he&#039;s not an American citizen, then he&#039;s minding what most certainly is not his business, and he should have his eyes removed as penance.

That is all.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Look, this is really fairly simple.</p>
<p>Would the gentleman in question still be encouraging the students to vote if he knew the majority of them would favor McCain rather than Obama?  If he&#8217;d still do it, then his concern is with increasing voting activity.  If he wouldn&#8217;t, then he&#8217;s just trying to increase the power of his favored candidate.</p>
<p>Of course, if he&#8217;s not an American citizen, then he&#8217;s minding what most certainly is not his business, and he should have his eyes removed as penance.</p>
<p>That is all.</p>
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		<title>By: rpl</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/10/weathersons-bad.html#comment-394847</link>
		<dc:creator>rpl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 18:56:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/10/bad-faith-voter-drives.html#comment-394847</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
Should Brian still act non-partisan if the election was between, say, Hitler and Gandhi?
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

By framing the question this way you&#039;ve mutated it into another question entirely.  The original question was, is encouraging people to vote (without pushing a particular candidate) really non-partisan if you know that in practice most of your audience will vote for the candidate you favor?  In this scenario the desirability of non-partisanship is stipulated from the beginning.

In the hypothetical election between Hitler and Gandhi, most people would be unabashedly partisan.  The operative word here is &quot;unabashedly&quot;.  A pro-Gandhi partisan in such an election wouldn&#039;t try to pretend to himself that he was non-partisan and thus wouldn&#039;t care whether he was acting in a non-partisan way.

Back to the actual scenario, what we have here is a person who is pushing his favorite candidate (i.e., being a partisan) while trying to claim the mantle of non-partisanship.  That is where the &quot;bad faith&quot; comes in.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
Should Brian still act non-partisan if the election was between, say, Hitler and Gandhi?
</p></blockquote>
<p>By framing the question this way you&#8217;ve mutated it into another question entirely.  The original question was, is encouraging people to vote (without pushing a particular candidate) really non-partisan if you know that in practice most of your audience will vote for the candidate you favor?  In this scenario the desirability of non-partisanship is stipulated from the beginning.</p>
<p>In the hypothetical election between Hitler and Gandhi, most people would be unabashedly partisan.  The operative word here is &#8220;unabashedly&#8221;.  A pro-Gandhi partisan in such an election wouldn&#8217;t try to pretend to himself that he was non-partisan and thus wouldn&#8217;t care whether he was acting in a non-partisan way.</p>
<p>Back to the actual scenario, what we have here is a person who is pushing his favorite candidate (i.e., being a partisan) while trying to claim the mantle of non-partisanship.  That is where the &#8220;bad faith&#8221; comes in.</p>
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		<title>By: John Maxwell IV</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/10/weathersons-bad.html#comment-394846</link>
		<dc:creator>John Maxwell IV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 01:57:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/10/bad-faith-voter-drives.html#comment-394846</guid>
		<description>&gt;But if not, your voting advocacy is just a bad faith attempt to hide a partisan effort to push particular candidates.

I stand by the principle of taking a non-partisan approach in most situations.  However, it seems to me that rules about non-partisanship break down if you&#039;ve done a &lt;a href=&quot;http://yudkowsky.net/virtues/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;thorough, humble&lt;/a&gt; analysis.  Should Brian still act non-partisan if the election was between, say, Hitler and Gandhi?

Ultimately, the ends &lt;i&gt;do&lt;/i&gt; justify the means.  You just have to make sure you&#039;re keeping track of all the ends.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>>But if not, your voting advocacy is just a bad faith attempt to hide a partisan effort to push particular candidates.</p>
<p>I stand by the principle of taking a non-partisan approach in most situations.  However, it seems to me that rules about non-partisanship break down if you&#8217;ve done a <a href="http://yudkowsky.net/virtues/" rel="nofollow">thorough, humble</a> analysis.  Should Brian still act non-partisan if the election was between, say, Hitler and Gandhi?</p>
<p>Ultimately, the ends <i>do</i> justify the means.  You just have to make sure you&#8217;re keeping track of all the ends.</p>
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		<title>By: MrHen</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/10/weathersons-bad.html#comment-394845</link>
		<dc:creator>MrHen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 22:01:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/10/bad-faith-voter-drives.html#comment-394845</guid>
		<description>I am having trouble with the analogy.  Professors are responsible for assigning grades and it is something they can directly affect.  Artificially raising grades is not the same as encouraging people to vote.  If professors had the ability to force people to vote, the analogy would fit.  A more apt analogy is to say that pushing students to vote would be the same as pushing students to get better grades.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am having trouble with the analogy.  Professors are responsible for assigning grades and it is something they can directly affect.  Artificially raising grades is not the same as encouraging people to vote.  If professors had the ability to force people to vote, the analogy would fit.  A more apt analogy is to say that pushing students to vote would be the same as pushing students to get better grades.</p>
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		<title>By: Sociology Graduate Student</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/10/weathersons-bad.html#comment-394844</link>
		<dc:creator>Sociology Graduate Student</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 21:38:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/10/bad-faith-voter-drives.html#comment-394844</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t imagine a counterfactual with opposite partisan leanings.  Ideally my feelings about Obama and McCain are based on my values and beliefs on matters of fact.  What values and beliefs would be held by my counterfactual with opposite partisan leanings?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t imagine a counterfactual with opposite partisan leanings.  Ideally my feelings about Obama and McCain are based on my values and beliefs on matters of fact.  What values and beliefs would be held by my counterfactual with opposite partisan leanings?</p>
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		<title>By: Benquo</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/10/weathersons-bad.html#comment-394843</link>
		<dc:creator>Benquo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 15:51:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/10/bad-faith-voter-drives.html#comment-394843</guid>
		<description>@Robin Hanson:

&quot;If a Stalinist were running in this election, then yes to be neutral Brian would need agreement from his Stalinist counterfactual.&quot;

Do you mean if a Stalinist were running &lt;i&gt;at all&lt;/i&gt;, or if a Stalininst were a major-party candidate/non-negligible contender?

The former principle I think would make a no-taking-sides rule equivalent to a no-action-at-all rule; I think there are few if any aspects of the &quot;public good&quot; that don&#039;t at least implicitly side against &lt;i&gt;someone&lt;/i&gt;.  (Cf. teaching evolution in schools; a lot of people sure seem to feel that constituted taking sides against them.  And I don&#039;t think my Anarchist counterfactual would be easy to convince of the value of &lt;i&gt;any&lt;/i&gt; legitimization of the current regime.)

But the latter standard would mean we need some way to determine how mainstream a party has to be before helping/hurting it counts as &quot;taking sides.&quot;  (Too small and it&#039;s not a meaningful &quot;side,&quot; too large and it&#039;s identical with the public good.)
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Robin Hanson:</p>
<p>&#8220;If a Stalinist were running in this election, then yes to be neutral Brian would need agreement from his Stalinist counterfactual.&#8221;</p>
<p>Do you mean if a Stalinist were running <i>at all</i>, or if a Stalininst were a major-party candidate/non-negligible contender?</p>
<p>The former principle I think would make a no-taking-sides rule equivalent to a no-action-at-all rule; I think there are few if any aspects of the &#8220;public good&#8221; that don&#8217;t at least implicitly side against <i>someone</i>.  (Cf. teaching evolution in schools; a lot of people sure seem to feel that constituted taking sides against them.  And I don&#8217;t think my Anarchist counterfactual would be easy to convince of the value of <i>any</i> legitimization of the current regime.)</p>
<p>But the latter standard would mean we need some way to determine how mainstream a party has to be before helping/hurting it counts as &#8220;taking sides.&#8221;  (Too small and it&#8217;s not a meaningful &#8220;side,&#8221; too large and it&#8217;s identical with the public good.)</p>
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		<title>By: frelkins</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/10/weathersons-bad.html#comment-394842</link>
		<dc:creator>frelkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 14:40:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/10/bad-faith-voter-drives.html#comment-394842</guid>
		<description>@David Wynn

&quot;might be costly to individuals has no bearing on the value of multiple informed votes to the system as a whole.&quot;

You&#039;re not seriously arguing this, are you? To claim that &quot;the value to the system as a whole&quot; outweighs a high cost to the individual is, with all due respect, terrifying. Not to overstate the case, but this is the worst form of positive liberty.

Voting is a small example - but as often happens on OB, upon reflection it illuminates the largest principles.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@David Wynn</p>
<p>&#8220;might be costly to individuals has no bearing on the value of multiple informed votes to the system as a whole.&#8221;</p>
<p>You&#8217;re not seriously arguing this, are you? To claim that &#8220;the value to the system as a whole&#8221; outweighs a high cost to the individual is, with all due respect, terrifying. Not to overstate the case, but this is the worst form of positive liberty.</p>
<p>Voting is a small example &#8211; but as often happens on OB, upon reflection it illuminates the largest principles.</p>
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		<title>By: David Wynn</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/10/weathersons-bad.html#comment-394841</link>
		<dc:creator>David Wynn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 12:12:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/10/bad-faith-voter-drives.html#comment-394841</guid>
		<description>Robin,

I agree adding a number of uninformed people to the voter pool does little to help the process as a whole, but I&#039;m not sure we could ever properly screen out the ones who were so uneducated.

However, I thought your quote here was interesting.

&quot;And even if someone&#039;s vote would increase this chance, if the increase is infinitesimal the fact that voting is costly can make us prefer he or she just stay home.&quot;

If a person&#039;s vote has a non-zero increase in the betterment of a voting system, shouldn&#039;t &quot;us&quot; (I&#039;m guessing you mean society here) encourage people to vote anyway? That voting might be costly to individuals has no bearing on the value of multiple informed votes to the system as a whole.

That&#039;s just my two cents.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin,</p>
<p>I agree adding a number of uninformed people to the voter pool does little to help the process as a whole, but I&#8217;m not sure we could ever properly screen out the ones who were so uneducated.</p>
<p>However, I thought your quote here was interesting.</p>
<p>&#8220;And even if someone&#8217;s vote would increase this chance, if the increase is infinitesimal the fact that voting is costly can make us prefer he or she just stay home.&#8221;</p>
<p>If a person&#8217;s vote has a non-zero increase in the betterment of a voting system, shouldn&#8217;t &#8220;us&#8221; (I&#8217;m guessing you mean society here) encourage people to vote anyway? That voting might be costly to individuals has no bearing on the value of multiple informed votes to the system as a whole.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s just my two cents.</p>
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		<title>By: Genevieve</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/10/weathersons-bad.html#comment-394840</link>
		<dc:creator>Genevieve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:56:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/10/bad-faith-voter-drives.html#comment-394840</guid>
		<description>Eliezer: There&#039;s a simpler way. I was volunteering over the weekend to register people to vote for Obama, because I enjoy front-row passes at exceptionally crowded Bruce Springsteen shows and the campaign offered that as the incentive to register voters for a few hours. (Not that I managed to register a significant number of people. The overwhelming majority of people showing up for that show were already registered and strongly for Obama. But hey, front row tickets!) For those of you that haven&#039;t seen the registration forms, it&#039;s pretty simple. Name, address, date of birth, last four digits of SSN, check yes if you are 18 or over and a U.S. citizen, write today&#039;s date, and sign it.

People have trouble with this. They put the current date for their birth-date. They put the wrong address. They check off the wrong box saying &quot;I&#039;m changing my address, so it&#039;s new voter, right?&quot; No, there&#039;s a box that says &quot;change of address&quot; for a reason. (Actually, it&#039;s new voter if you&#039;re coming in from a state other than the one you are registering in, but I digress). They forget to sign it. They write &quot;United States&quot; where it says &quot;County.&quot;

It is an exceedingly simple form, and someone standing in line to get concert tickets who asks me for such a form should be able to handle it. Yet, people cannot. Feeling charitable pre-no $ cost Bruce show, I decided to not be objective and chalk it up to the scene- pre-concert, waiting in line, lots of people, etc- but I was told later, that, no, people mess it up no matter where they fill it out. If you cannot fill out the form without help, you should not be able to vote. That should be the minimum threshold, and I think we&#039;d actually cull out a lot more people than one would expect to.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eliezer: There&#8217;s a simpler way. I was volunteering over the weekend to register people to vote for Obama, because I enjoy front-row passes at exceptionally crowded Bruce Springsteen shows and the campaign offered that as the incentive to register voters for a few hours. (Not that I managed to register a significant number of people. The overwhelming majority of people showing up for that show were already registered and strongly for Obama. But hey, front row tickets!) For those of you that haven&#8217;t seen the registration forms, it&#8217;s pretty simple. Name, address, date of birth, last four digits of SSN, check yes if you are 18 or over and a U.S. citizen, write today&#8217;s date, and sign it.</p>
<p>People have trouble with this. They put the current date for their birth-date. They put the wrong address. They check off the wrong box saying &#8220;I&#8217;m changing my address, so it&#8217;s new voter, right?&#8221; No, there&#8217;s a box that says &#8220;change of address&#8221; for a reason. (Actually, it&#8217;s new voter if you&#8217;re coming in from a state other than the one you are registering in, but I digress). They forget to sign it. They write &#8220;United States&#8221; where it says &#8220;County.&#8221;</p>
<p>It is an exceedingly simple form, and someone standing in line to get concert tickets who asks me for such a form should be able to handle it. Yet, people cannot. Feeling charitable pre-no $ cost Bruce show, I decided to not be objective and chalk it up to the scene- pre-concert, waiting in line, lots of people, etc- but I was told later, that, no, people mess it up no matter where they fill it out. If you cannot fill out the form without help, you should not be able to vote. That should be the minimum threshold, and I think we&#8217;d actually cull out a lot more people than one would expect to.</p>
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		<title>By: Lord</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/10/weathersons-bad.html#comment-394839</link>
		<dc:creator>Lord</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 05:31:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/10/bad-faith-voter-drives.html#comment-394839</guid>
		<description>Is it even possible to encourage voting without also encouraging becoming informed enough to do so, even if marginally or indirectly?  Is anyone so self deluded they think their actions would have a material effect on the results?  This should be viewed less as an attempt at persuasion than self confirmation.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is it even possible to encourage voting without also encouraging becoming informed enough to do so, even if marginally or indirectly?  Is anyone so self deluded they think their actions would have a material effect on the results?  This should be viewed less as an attempt at persuasion than self confirmation.</p>
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