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	<title>Comments on: Open Thread</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/10/open-thread-8.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/10/open-thread-8.html#comment-426326</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 07:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/10/open-thread-8.html#comment-426326</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Do you think that poverty and/or extreme poverty will ever be eliminated in a world with scarcity?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do you think that poverty and/or extreme poverty will ever be eliminated in a world with scarcity?</p>
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		<title>By: Will Pearson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/10/open-thread-8.html#comment-426325</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Pearson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 19:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/10/open-thread-8.html#comment-426325</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;A question, is Economics about predicting the economy?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A question, is Economics about predicting the economy?</p>
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		<title>By: Abigail</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/10/open-thread-8.html#comment-426324</link>
		<dc:creator>Abigail</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 08:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/10/open-thread-8.html#comment-426324</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I do not believe in Cryogenics as a viable way to continue my life. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;At the moment of death, my cell membranes begin to break down, in my brain, and information is lost. The process of freezing exacerbates the brain damage. It is not quite as bad as the ancient Egyptians drawing my brain out through my nose, but it is still - yes I will say impossible - to bring the frozen brain back to life.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Eliezer, when you claim to believe in Cryogenics, are you making a deliberate error, so that your most star-struck fans (including me) cannot think you incapable of error, and must test your statements for ourselves? Or do you really believe in it? &lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do not believe in Cryogenics as a viable way to continue my life. </p>
<p>At the moment of death, my cell membranes begin to break down, in my brain, and information is lost. The process of freezing exacerbates the brain damage. It is not quite as bad as the ancient Egyptians drawing my brain out through my nose, but it is still &#8211; yes I will say impossible &#8211; to bring the frozen brain back to life.</p>
<p>Eliezer, when you claim to believe in Cryogenics, are you making a deliberate error, so that your most star-struck fans (including me) cannot think you incapable of error, and must test your statements for ourselves? Or do you really believe in it? </p>
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		<title>By: simon</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/10/open-thread-8.html#comment-426323</link>
		<dc:creator>simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 15:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/10/open-thread-8.html#comment-426323</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Phil: what he claims to be an &quot;outline&quot; of a proof really doesn&#039;t say how he gets the result. It&#039;s only that one paragraph, the following paragraphs introduce the terminology for eq (1), they aren&#039;t part of the &quot;outline&quot;. &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;He does say: &lt;br&gt;
&quot;before measurements, identical copies of the observer exist in parallel universes&quot;  &lt;br&gt;
   - (which is a not at all the conventional way to think of many worlds, but probably would not lead to an incorrect result in this case, although it would in an epr experiment)&lt;br&gt;
&quot;a Bayesian probability density ... is NOT a relative frequency&quot;&lt;br&gt;
   - (but by repeating the experiment over and over the relative frequency interpretation would come to the same result; Tipler doesn&#039;t seem to realize that you can repeat the whole experiment, not just have repeated observations in one experiment)&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I suspect that Tipler does make the mistake you suggested he might have made, though.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Anyway, he&#039;s wrong in stating that there would be a difference between many worlds and Copenhagen in this case, and his result in eq(1) is clearly wrong for any interpretation.&lt;br&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil: what he claims to be an &#8220;outline&#8221; of a proof really doesn&#8217;t say how he gets the result. It&#8217;s only that one paragraph, the following paragraphs introduce the terminology for eq (1), they aren&#8217;t part of the &#8220;outline&#8221;. </p>
<p>He does say: <br />
&#8220;before measurements, identical copies of the observer exist in parallel universes&#8221;  <br />
   &#8211; (which is a not at all the conventional way to think of many worlds, but probably would not lead to an incorrect result in this case, although it would in an epr experiment)<br />
&#8220;a Bayesian probability density &#8230; is NOT a relative frequency&#8221;<br />
   &#8211; (but by repeating the experiment over and over the relative frequency interpretation would come to the same result; Tipler doesn&#8217;t seem to realize that you can repeat the whole experiment, not just have repeated observations in one experiment)</p>
<p>I suspect that Tipler does make the mistake you suggested he might have made, though.</p>
<p>Anyway, he&#8217;s wrong in stating that there would be a difference between many worlds and Copenhagen in this case, and his result in eq(1) is clearly wrong for any interpretation.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Tyler</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/10/open-thread-8.html#comment-426322</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Tyler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 15:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/10/open-thread-8.html#comment-426322</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;em&gt;Non-Many-Worlds quantum mechanics, based on the Born Interpretation of the wave function, gives only relative frequencies asymptotically as the number of observations goes to infinity. In actual measurements, the Born frequencies are seen to gradually build up as the number of measurements increases, but standard theory gives no way to compute the rate of convergence.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;p&gt;...seems to defeat his own thesis. The results of the test he proposes might well be what the MWI predicts - but he himself claims that other theories are vague on the issue - so what&#039;s the point?  The conventional wisdom is &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.hedweb.com/manworld.htm#detect&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[</p>
<blockquote><p><em>Non-Many-Worlds quantum mechanics, based on the Born Interpretation of the wave function, gives only relative frequencies asymptotically as the number of observations goes to infinity. In actual measurements, the Born frequencies are seen to gradually build up as the number of measurements increases, but standard theory gives no way to compute the rate of convergence.</em></p></blockquote>
<p>&#8230;seems to defeat his own thesis. The results of the test he proposes might well be what the MWI predicts &#8211; but he himself claims that other theories are vague on the issue &#8211; so what&#8217;s the point?  The conventional wisdom is <a href="http://www.hedweb.com/manworld.htm#detect" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil Goetz</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/10/open-thread-8.html#comment-426321</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Goetz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 14:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/10/open-thread-8.html#comment-426321</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
Testing Many-Worlds Quantum Theory By Measuring Pattern Convergence Rates

&lt;p&gt;http://arxiv.org/abs/0809.4422&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;This was published recently, but it seems to have received very few discussion. The paper is really short (2 pages, without abstract and references it would be a single page) and claims to use Bayesian theory to provide a testable formula that should either prove or discard Many Worlds.&lt;br&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;br&gt;
I didn&#039;t understand it, but I suspect Tipler may be trying to measure, in one world, how fast the pattern converges summed over many worlds, which I think would be a mistake.

&lt;p&gt;I also suspect Tipler&#039;s ideas won&#039;t be given as careful an examination as they would have if someone else had put them forward.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Is there a physicist in the house?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
Testing Many-Worlds Quantum Theory By Measuring Pattern Convergence Rates</p>
<p><a href="http://arxiv.org/abs/0809.4422" rel="nofollow">http://arxiv.org/abs/0809.4422</a></p>
<p>This was published recently, but it seems to have received very few discussion. The paper is really short (2 pages, without abstract and references it would be a single page) and claims to use Bayesian theory to provide a testable formula that should either prove or discard Many Worlds.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>
I didn&#8217;t understand it, but I suspect Tipler may be trying to measure, in one world, how fast the pattern converges summed over many worlds, which I think would be a mistake.</p>
<p>I also suspect Tipler&#8217;s ideas won&#8217;t be given as careful an examination as they would have if someone else had put them forward.</p>
<p>Is there a physicist in the house?</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Yokomizo</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/10/open-thread-8.html#comment-426320</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Yokomizo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 11:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/10/open-thread-8.html#comment-426320</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Testing Many-Worlds Quantum Theory By Measuring Pattern Convergence Rates&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;http://arxivblog.com/?p=656&lt;br&gt;
http://arxiv.org/abs/0809.4422&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;This was published recently, but it seems to have received very few discussion. The paper is really short (2 pages, without abstract and references it would be a single page) and claims to use Bayesian theory to provide a testable formula that should either prove or discard Many Worlds.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Testing Many-Worlds Quantum Theory By Measuring Pattern Convergence Rates</p>
<p><a href="http://arxivblog.com/?p=656" rel="nofollow">http://arxivblog.com/?p=656</a><br />
<a href="http://arxiv.org/abs/0809.4422" rel="nofollow">http://arxiv.org/abs/0809.4422</a></p>
<p>This was published recently, but it seems to have received very few discussion. The paper is really short (2 pages, without abstract and references it would be a single page) and claims to use Bayesian theory to provide a testable formula that should either prove or discard Many Worlds.</p>
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		<title>By: anon</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/10/open-thread-8.html#comment-426319</link>
		<dc:creator>anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 07:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/10/open-thread-8.html#comment-426319</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Via Marginal Revolution, a &lt;a href=&quot;http://bps-research-digest.blogspot.com/2008/10/economic-game-provides-fresh-insights.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;research paper&lt;/a&gt; describes the behavior of people diagnosed with &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/borderline_personality_disorder&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;borderline personality disorder&lt;/a&gt; in a repeated trust game.  The gist of it is that cooperation broke down because the subjects made no attempt to restore the counterpart&#039;s trust, even as her willingness to lend deteriorated.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Very interesting stuff, especially in light of the current credit crisis - how much of our economy is dependent on fragile cooperation mechanisms?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Via Marginal Revolution, a <a href="http://bps-research-digest.blogspot.com/2008/10/economic-game-provides-fresh-insights.html" rel="nofollow">research paper</a> describes the behavior of people diagnosed with <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/borderline_personality_disorder" rel="nofollow">borderline personality disorder</a> in a repeated trust game.  The gist of it is that cooperation broke down because the subjects made no attempt to restore the counterpart&#8217;s trust, even as her willingness to lend deteriorated.</p>
<p>Very interesting stuff, especially in light of the current credit crisis &#8211; how much of our economy is dependent on fragile cooperation mechanisms?</p>
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		<title>By: mjgeddes</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/10/open-thread-8.html#comment-426318</link>
		<dc:creator>mjgeddes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 23:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/10/open-thread-8.html#comment-426318</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Every one here seems to have &#039;unloaded all their chips&#039; on Bayesian Induction.  Continuing the poker game analogy, you could say that the AGI folks here have &#039;gone all in&#039; on Bayes.  Either they&#039;ll strike the jackpot...or they&#039;ll lose everything.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Of course if you define intelligence in a sufficiently narrow way (ie optimally achieving goals), then you can fix your definition so its fully captured by Bayes (M.Hutter, S.Legg etc.).  But that doesn&#039;t mean that your conception of intelligence is neccessarily fully correct....&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Let me suggest an alternative definition of intelligence, (which blog readers may well all find highly peculiar at first):&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;b&gt;Intelligence is the ability to form effective representations of your own intentions/values&lt;/b&gt; - Marc Geddes&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Folks should keep an open mind about the current &#039;Bayesian Induction&#039; craze.  There could be further advances still in store...  &lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Every one here seems to have &#8216;unloaded all their chips&#8217; on Bayesian Induction.  Continuing the poker game analogy, you could say that the AGI folks here have &#8216;gone all in&#8217; on Bayes.  Either they&#8217;ll strike the jackpot&#8230;or they&#8217;ll lose everything.</p>
<p>Of course if you define intelligence in a sufficiently narrow way (ie optimally achieving goals), then you can fix your definition so its fully captured by Bayes (M.Hutter, S.Legg etc.).  But that doesn&#8217;t mean that your conception of intelligence is neccessarily fully correct&#8230;.</p>
<p>Let me suggest an alternative definition of intelligence, (which blog readers may well all find highly peculiar at first):</p>
<p><b>Intelligence is the ability to form effective representations of your own intentions/values</b> &#8211; Marc Geddes</p>
<p>Folks should keep an open mind about the current &#8216;Bayesian Induction&#8217; craze.  There could be further advances still in store&#8230;  </p>
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		<title>By: Doug S.</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/10/open-thread-8.html#comment-426317</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 09:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/10/open-thread-8.html#comment-426317</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I would say that it&#039;s bad to become an opiate addict because negative feedback mechanisms within the brain limit the effectiveness of opiates to produce sustainable pleasure. In other words, you eventually lose your capability to experience pleasure from both opiates and the events that naturally trigger that particular reward system. In the long run, you end up less happy than if you had never started taking them.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would say that it&#8217;s bad to become an opiate addict because negative feedback mechanisms within the brain limit the effectiveness of opiates to produce sustainable pleasure. In other words, you eventually lose your capability to experience pleasure from both opiates and the events that naturally trigger that particular reward system. In the long run, you end up less happy than if you had never started taking them.</p>
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