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	<title>Comments on: Serious Music</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/09/serious-music.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: frelkins</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/09/serious-music.html#comment-396417</link>
		<dc:creator>frelkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 14:29:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/09/serious-music.html#comment-396417</guid>
		<description>@Robin

&quot;does anyone want to signal they are frivolous?&quot;

Yes. All the time. Those who are incontestably high in any social order will put great effort into frivolity as a form of counter-signaling.

Drunken frat-boy jocks, Old Etonians &amp; Harrovians, starlets, the most successful sales guy who also gets the loudest at the corporate party, the real aristocracy, you name it. Comedy is a separate category; that&#039;s a classical institution requiring its own analysis.

&quot;As I too often fall on the wrong side of serious-silly norms&quot;

Ponder instead that one is perhaps merely resting at the first of Schopenhauer&#039;s 3 stages of truth.  I sometimes now wonder if all those comic-book/anime/Star Trek loving nerds might also perhaps be counter-signaling against their massively obvious and otherwise intimidating overclock.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Robin</p>
<p>&#8220;does anyone want to signal they are frivolous?&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes. All the time. Those who are incontestably high in any social order will put great effort into frivolity as a form of counter-signaling.</p>
<p>Drunken frat-boy jocks, Old Etonians &#038; Harrovians, starlets, the most successful sales guy who also gets the loudest at the corporate party, the real aristocracy, you name it. Comedy is a separate category; that&#8217;s a classical institution requiring its own analysis.</p>
<p>&#8220;As I too often fall on the wrong side of serious-silly norms&#8221;</p>
<p>Ponder instead that one is perhaps merely resting at the first of Schopenhauer&#8217;s 3 stages of truth.  I sometimes now wonder if all those comic-book/anime/Star Trek loving nerds might also perhaps be counter-signaling against their massively obvious and otherwise intimidating overclock.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/09/serious-music.html#comment-396416</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 09:08:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/09/serious-music.html#comment-396416</guid>
		<description>frelkins, does anyone &lt;i&gt;want&lt;/i&gt; to signal they are frivolous?  And why would not having fun credibly signal that you understand more?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>frelkins, does anyone <i>want</i> to signal they are frivolous?  And why would not having fun credibly signal that you understand more?</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/09/serious-music.html#comment-396415</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 06:08:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/09/serious-music.html#comment-396415</guid>
		<description>I always say that humor is a tool of communication. You might think of it as frivolous, but often it can get people&#039;s attention so that you can hold their interest and inform them.

Music&#039;s function, like humor, is entertainment. It&#039;s primarily fun. But given that happiness (or satisfaction?) is the ultimate goal in life, music is very serious. My career focuses on artistic matters. I grew up thinking that doctors were more important than artists, that artists were unnecessary novelties. But without actually enjoying life, there is no purpose to being alive. Which reminds me of my favorite Catholic church song, &quot;We are many parts... but we are all one body... and the gifts we have... we are given to share...&quot; Is that song fun or serious?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I always say that humor is a tool of communication. You might think of it as frivolous, but often it can get people&#8217;s attention so that you can hold their interest and inform them.</p>
<p>Music&#8217;s function, like humor, is entertainment. It&#8217;s primarily fun. But given that happiness (or satisfaction?) is the ultimate goal in life, music is very serious. My career focuses on artistic matters. I grew up thinking that doctors were more important than artists, that artists were unnecessary novelties. But without actually enjoying life, there is no purpose to being alive. Which reminds me of my favorite Catholic church song, &#8220;We are many parts&#8230; but we are all one body&#8230; and the gifts we have&#8230; we are given to share&#8230;&#8221; Is that song fun or serious?</p>
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		<title>By: frelkins</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/09/serious-music.html#comment-396414</link>
		<dc:creator>frelkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 03:06:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/09/serious-music.html#comment-396414</guid>
		<description>I propose that music becomes &quot;serious&quot; as the musicians themselves seek to professionalize and gain status as artists, not mere entertainers, &lt;em&gt;along with&lt;/em&gt; a rise in status-seeking in the audience, an audience that also wants to pose as distinctive, even rebellious, but &lt;strong&gt;not&lt;/strong&gt; frivolous. Take us seriously, both artists and audience signal, we are different! We can understand what is unpopular and difficult - Respect us!

This was true of the middle classes, who once sought recognition through a ritualized classical music, as it was of the jazzhound:

&quot;The young modernists who were heirs of the 1940s were also heirs of the pride that jazzmen had been taking in their expanded [musical] capabilities. . .By the 1950s, however, the concept of jazz as an object-in-itself, a non-functional music in the sense that it was no longer designed for dancing or background listening [while dining], had attracted a sizable new audience. . .The listeners, or most of them, accepted the new music on the &lt;em&gt;players&#039; terms&lt;/em&gt; (emphasis added) and went to Birdland as if it were Town Hall.

Older musicians. . .are often made nervous by the seeming passivity and stern concentration of the new serious audience. Anita O&#039;Day, who is temperamentally of the jazz-as-entertainment tradition, speaks for the pre-modernists when she says &#039;I feel more comfortable when the audience is balling it up a little. . .&#039; Several of the modernists agree with her but expect silence and sustained attention from an audience.

A large part of the contemporary jazz audience, however, is more likely to be serious in its mien than in its comprehension of the music. Much of the audience, as has been true of every jazz generation so far, is more compulsive about seeming &#039;hip&#039; to the newest innovations than in understanding the content of those innovations. These are youngsters who find in jazz a surface corollary to their own safely transitory &#039;rebellion&#039; of adolescence. . .

As a result, the jazzman . . .has become even more self-conscious about his work.&quot; - Nat Hentoff, The Jazz Life, 1978

And now this tendency has perhaps passed to a certain segment of the indie set, who use &quot;seriousness&quot; and non-dancing to demand respect &amp; question authority - no need to even &quot;raise your hand.&quot;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I propose that music becomes &#8220;serious&#8221; as the musicians themselves seek to professionalize and gain status as artists, not mere entertainers, <em>along with</em> a rise in status-seeking in the audience, an audience that also wants to pose as distinctive, even rebellious, but <strong>not</strong> frivolous. Take us seriously, both artists and audience signal, we are different! We can understand what is unpopular and difficult &#8211; Respect us!</p>
<p>This was true of the middle classes, who once sought recognition through a ritualized classical music, as it was of the jazzhound:</p>
<p>&#8220;The young modernists who were heirs of the 1940s were also heirs of the pride that jazzmen had been taking in their expanded [musical] capabilities. . .By the 1950s, however, the concept of jazz as an object-in-itself, a non-functional music in the sense that it was no longer designed for dancing or background listening [while dining], had attracted a sizable new audience. . .The listeners, or most of them, accepted the new music on the <em>players&#8217; terms</em> (emphasis added) and went to Birdland as if it were Town Hall.</p>
<p>Older musicians. . .are often made nervous by the seeming passivity and stern concentration of the new serious audience. Anita O&#8217;Day, who is temperamentally of the jazz-as-entertainment tradition, speaks for the pre-modernists when she says &#8216;I feel more comfortable when the audience is balling it up a little. . .&#8217; Several of the modernists agree with her but expect silence and sustained attention from an audience.</p>
<p>A large part of the contemporary jazz audience, however, is more likely to be serious in its mien than in its comprehension of the music. Much of the audience, as has been true of every jazz generation so far, is more compulsive about seeming &#8216;hip&#8217; to the newest innovations than in understanding the content of those innovations. These are youngsters who find in jazz a surface corollary to their own safely transitory &#8216;rebellion&#8217; of adolescence. . .</p>
<p>As a result, the jazzman . . .has become even more self-conscious about his work.&#8221; &#8211; Nat Hentoff, The Jazz Life, 1978</p>
<p>And now this tendency has perhaps passed to a certain segment of the indie set, who use &#8220;seriousness&#8221; and non-dancing to demand respect &#038; question authority &#8211; no need to even &#8220;raise your hand.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/09/serious-music.html#comment-396413</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 01:49:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/09/serious-music.html#comment-396413</guid>
		<description>Regarding the fun music in-group: I highly recommend the band The Hold Steady.

They have oodles of indie cred, yet they realize that music is supposed to be fun. And their fans have picked up on this notion. At Hold Steady shows, people sing along and dance and get every bit as rowdy as fans at, say, a Grateful Dead show. You can have all of this fun and still maintain your oh-so-important-serious/ironic indie cred.

They are an important band, I hope.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding the fun music in-group: I highly recommend the band The Hold Steady.</p>
<p>They have oodles of indie cred, yet they realize that music is supposed to be fun. And their fans have picked up on this notion. At Hold Steady shows, people sing along and dance and get every bit as rowdy as fans at, say, a Grateful Dead show. You can have all of this fun and still maintain your oh-so-important-serious/ironic indie cred.</p>
<p>They are an important band, I hope.</p>
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		<title>By: Jess Riedel</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/09/serious-music.html#comment-396412</link>
		<dc:creator>Jess Riedel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2008 12:01:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/09/serious-music.html#comment-396412</guid>
		<description>Robin, it&#039;s also true that all math problems have some sort of intellectual component.  But some math problems are more interesting---and worthy of analysis---than others.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin, it&#8217;s also true that all math problems have some sort of intellectual component.  But some math problems are more interesting&#8212;and worthy of analysis&#8212;than others.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil Goetz</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/09/serious-music.html#comment-396411</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Goetz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 20:14:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/09/serious-music.html#comment-396411</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;So, any suggestions for Robin where he might find a music-dance-fun ingroup to his taste?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Well, Jaxx, DC&#039;s premier German Death Metal nightclub, is conveniently close to George Mason, at the corner of Rolling Road &amp; Old Keene Mill.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>So, any suggestions for Robin where he might find a music-dance-fun ingroup to his taste?</p></blockquote>
<p>Well, Jaxx, DC&#8217;s premier German Death Metal nightclub, is conveniently close to George Mason, at the corner of Rolling Road &#038; Old Keene Mill.</p>
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		<title>By: Lucas</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/09/serious-music.html#comment-396410</link>
		<dc:creator>Lucas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 19:57:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/09/serious-music.html#comment-396410</guid>
		<description>Check out Girl Talk.  They have some indie rock cred, but their concerts really are just big dance parties.  Also some interesting copyright questions to think about when you listen to their music, which is just a mashup of a bunch of party music.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Check out Girl Talk.  They have some indie rock cred, but their concerts really are just big dance parties.  Also some interesting copyright questions to think about when you listen to their music, which is just a mashup of a bunch of party music.</p>
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		<title>By: Lara Foster</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/09/serious-music.html#comment-396409</link>
		<dc:creator>Lara Foster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 16:58:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/09/serious-music.html#comment-396409</guid>
		<description>Robin,
If you are asking me to direct you to a &#039;fun-music&#039; ingroup, I would suggest looking at the way different fandoms behave at concerts.  People who go to German Death Metal conventions *are* going to rock-out, and are going to think you are a wussy if you sit quietly in a chair intently focused on the meaning of the lyrics.  Well, actually, they will probably be too drunk, high, and moving too violently to even notice you sitting quietly in the corner, but still...

You can of course also go to a contra-dance.  Fun-loving, gregarious folks line-dancing all around!

So, any suggestions for Robin where he might find a music-dance-fun ingroup to his taste?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin,<br />
If you are asking me to direct you to a &#8216;fun-music&#8217; ingroup, I would suggest looking at the way different fandoms behave at concerts.  People who go to German Death Metal conventions *are* going to rock-out, and are going to think you are a wussy if you sit quietly in a chair intently focused on the meaning of the lyrics.  Well, actually, they will probably be too drunk, high, and moving too violently to even notice you sitting quietly in the corner, but still&#8230;</p>
<p>You can of course also go to a contra-dance.  Fun-loving, gregarious folks line-dancing all around!</p>
<p>So, any suggestions for Robin where he might find a music-dance-fun ingroup to his taste?</p>
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		<title>By: Phil Goetz</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/09/serious-music.html#comment-396408</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Goetz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 16:47:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/09/serious-music.html#comment-396408</guid>
		<description>Oops.  The New Yorker wasn&#039;t talking about the decline of orchestral music.  So, while I stand by what I wrote, it was off-topic.

Beethoven campaigned against the aristocratic practice of talking during concerts.  If people started talking, he would stop playing.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops.  The New Yorker wasn&#8217;t talking about the decline of orchestral music.  So, while I stand by what I wrote, it was off-topic.</p>
<p>Beethoven campaigned against the aristocratic practice of talking during concerts.  If people started talking, he would stop playing.</p>
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