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	<title>Comments on: Immodest Caplan</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/09/immodest-caplan.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: Ben Jones</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/09/immodest-caplan.html#comment-396532</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 10:42:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/09/immodest-caplan.html#comment-396532</guid>
		<description>What MV said. Caledonian, surely the truly rational don&#039;t waste time worrying about whether or not they&#039;re sane?

&lt;i&gt;Bryan seems to mistakenly conclude that one is more justified in relying on one&#039;s own direct evaluation of arguments, relative to the evaluations of others, on topics where people tend to be more irrational.&lt;/i&gt;

But he doesn&#039;t suggest this as a piece of general advice (i.e. he would say &#039;I&#039; or &#039;economists&#039; rather than &#039;one&#039;.)

If you (believe that you) have evidence that you&#039;re more rational than the average person, his is excellent advice. I do, Caplan does, everyone here does if they&#039;re honest. If you believe you&#039;re below average rationality, do the opposite. Sounds fine to me.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What MV said. Caledonian, surely the truly rational don&#8217;t waste time worrying about whether or not they&#8217;re sane?</p>
<p><i>Bryan seems to mistakenly conclude that one is more justified in relying on one&#8217;s own direct evaluation of arguments, relative to the evaluations of others, on topics where people tend to be more irrational.</i></p>
<p>But he doesn&#8217;t suggest this as a piece of general advice (i.e. he would say &#8216;I&#8217; or &#8216;economists&#8217; rather than &#8216;one&#8217;.)</p>
<p>If you (believe that you) have evidence that you&#8217;re more rational than the average person, his is excellent advice. I do, Caplan does, everyone here does if they&#8217;re honest. If you believe you&#8217;re below average rationality, do the opposite. Sounds fine to me.</p>
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		<title>By: THE BIZOP NEWS</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/09/immodest-caplan.html#comment-396533</link>
		<dc:creator>THE BIZOP NEWS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2008 01:41:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/09/immodest-caplan.html#comment-396533</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;I am Dumb, but Dummies Lie&lt;/strong&gt;

Image via Wikipedia One of the most interesting and challenging logical phenomena discovered in the 20th century was the rigorous study of the relationship, for...
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>I am Dumb, but Dummies Lie</strong></p>
<p>Image via Wikipedia One of the most interesting and challenging logical phenomena discovered in the 20th century was the rigorous study of the relationship, for&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: michael vassar</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/09/immodest-caplan.html#comment-396531</link>
		<dc:creator>michael vassar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2008 20:19:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/09/immodest-caplan.html#comment-396531</guid>
		<description>&quot;I do think far too many irrational people have a subjective perception that they have chosen to be rational for that be more than a rather weak guide to one&#039;s own rationality.&quot;

What does that matter to a rational person?  No number of suicide rocks is sufficient to make me worry that I am one.  Ditto creationists or astrology believers.  In so far as I am rational, I &quot;should&quot; believe that I am rational as that belief will cause me to win.  If I&#039;m not rational I won&#039;t do what I &quot;should&quot; in any event so the point is moot.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I do think far too many irrational people have a subjective perception that they have chosen to be rational for that be more than a rather weak guide to one&#8217;s own rationality.&#8221;</p>
<p>What does that matter to a rational person?  No number of suicide rocks is sufficient to make me worry that I am one.  Ditto creationists or astrology believers.  In so far as I am rational, I &#8220;should&#8221; believe that I am rational as that belief will cause me to win.  If I&#8217;m not rational I won&#8217;t do what I &#8220;should&#8221; in any event so the point is moot.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Tarleton</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/09/immodest-caplan.html#comment-396530</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Tarleton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2008 20:03:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/09/immodest-caplan.html#comment-396530</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Those who fall into madness believe they&#039;re finally becoming sane. Those who fall into sanity believe it&#039;s possible that they may be sane, but fear and doubt their own sanity.&lt;/blockquote&gt;Then fearing and doubting sanity is (not entirely communicable) evidence for sanity.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Those who fall into madness believe they&#8217;re finally becoming sane. Those who fall into sanity believe it&#8217;s possible that they may be sane, but fear and doubt their own sanity.</p></blockquote>
<p>Then fearing and doubting sanity is (not entirely communicable) evidence for sanity.</p>
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		<title>By: TGGP</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/09/immodest-caplan.html#comment-396529</link>
		<dc:creator>TGGP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2008 19:52:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/09/immodest-caplan.html#comment-396529</guid>
		<description>Caledonian, your portrayal of insanity seems very different from Caplan&#039;s. Have you read &lt;a href=&quot;http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2006/09/they_called_me.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;his paper&lt;/a&gt;, and if so, what do you think of it?

I think people have imperfect access to their rationality and are often motivated not to pursue correct beliefs.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Caledonian, your portrayal of insanity seems very different from Caplan&#8217;s. Have you read <a href="http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2006/09/they_called_me.html" rel="nofollow">his paper</a>, and if so, what do you think of it?</p>
<p>I think people have imperfect access to their rationality and are often motivated not to pursue correct beliefs.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/09/immodest-caplan.html#comment-396528</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2008 17:40:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/09/immodest-caplan.html#comment-396528</guid>
		<description>Eliezer, in this post I didn&#039;t address the issue of how modest to be overall regarding your vs. others&#039; evaluations.  Instead I said confidence should be less but modesty should not be less for low-material-cost topics.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eliezer, in this post I didn&#8217;t address the issue of how modest to be overall regarding your vs. others&#8217; evaluations.  Instead I said confidence should be less but modesty should not be less for low-material-cost topics.</p>
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		<title>By: Eliezer Yudkowsky</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/09/immodest-caplan.html#comment-396527</link>
		<dc:creator>Eliezer Yudkowsky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2008 17:33:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/09/immodest-caplan.html#comment-396527</guid>
		<description>I find myself leaning toward Caplan.  I too am suspicious of modesty on multiple grounds: it&#039;s easy to endorse modesty and then not change any of your opinions, it&#039;s a general-purpose counterargument, etc.

If Caplan has identified specific biases and compensated for all specific biases he knows, then he is justified in believing his beliefs to be above average.  As for the possibility of remaining biases, he should adjust his probabilities in such a direction that he expects the discovery of remaining biases, like the discovery of remaining unknown unknowns, to shift his beliefs the same amount in either direction on average.

I&#039;m also sympathetic to pleas not to lose sight of first-order object-level arguments in trying to adjust for just the right amount of modesty with respect to a crowd that one has just demonstrated to be individually and collectively insane in various specific ways.  All judgments begin at the object level and its straight-out first-order verdict should never be neglected.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find myself leaning toward Caplan.  I too am suspicious of modesty on multiple grounds: it&#8217;s easy to endorse modesty and then not change any of your opinions, it&#8217;s a general-purpose counterargument, etc.</p>
<p>If Caplan has identified specific biases and compensated for all specific biases he knows, then he is justified in believing his beliefs to be above average.  As for the possibility of remaining biases, he should adjust his probabilities in such a direction that he expects the discovery of remaining biases, like the discovery of remaining unknown unknowns, to shift his beliefs the same amount in either direction on average.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m also sympathetic to pleas not to lose sight of first-order object-level arguments in trying to adjust for just the right amount of modesty with respect to a crowd that one has just demonstrated to be individually and collectively insane in various specific ways.  All judgments begin at the object level and its straight-out first-order verdict should never be neglected.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug S.</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/09/immodest-caplan.html#comment-396526</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2008 17:14:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/09/immodest-caplan.html#comment-396526</guid>
		<description>&quot;Remember that limited expertise is better than none at all.&quot;

For some reason, I feel compelled to point out counterexamples; consider the history of medicine in Europe before, say, 1800. Doctors were more likely to hurt you than help you.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Remember that limited expertise is better than none at all.&#8221;</p>
<p>For some reason, I feel compelled to point out counterexamples; consider the history of medicine in Europe before, say, 1800. Doctors were more likely to hurt you than help you.</p>
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		<title>By: Caledonian</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/09/immodest-caplan.html#comment-396525</link>
		<dc:creator>Caledonian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2008 16:43:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/09/immodest-caplan.html#comment-396525</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;People have certain privileged knowledge about their own rationality that they don&#039;t have about that of other people or of suicide rock.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

No, we don&#039;t.  One of the first things rational people realize is that they cannot demonstrate their own rationality to themselves.

Those who fall into madness believe they&#039;re finally becoming sane.  Those who fall into sanity believe it&#039;s possible that they may be sane, but fear and doubt their own sanity.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>People have certain privileged knowledge about their own rationality that they don&#8217;t have about that of other people or of suicide rock.</p></blockquote>
<p>No, we don&#8217;t.  One of the first things rational people realize is that they cannot demonstrate their own rationality to themselves.</p>
<p>Those who fall into madness believe they&#8217;re finally becoming sane.  Those who fall into sanity believe it&#8217;s possible that they may be sane, but fear and doubt their own sanity.</p>
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		<title>By: George Weinberg</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/09/immodest-caplan.html#comment-396524</link>
		<dc:creator>George Weinberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2008 16:40:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/09/immodest-caplan.html#comment-396524</guid>
		<description>Robin, I think you may be confusing a heuristic with a causal relationship. Or maybe this is something that looks different from the outside than from the inside.

Imagine I make a testable prediction, and also wager a large sum of money that my prediction is correct. The fact that I have made this large wager might increase your confidence that my prediction is correct, and certainly should increase your estimation of my own confidence in my prediction. But I cannot increase my own confidence that my prediction was correct by betting on it.

The real problem with the objection is that no sensible person would feel that the author&#039;s professed confidence that his ideas are correct is a good reason for the reader to believe that those ideas are correct in the first place. Before reading the book, it&#039;s perfectly reasonable to suspect that the author has more confidence in his ideas than the facts merit. Most authors do. But it would be absurd to argue in a review of the book, &quot;this book probably sucks, since most books do&quot;.


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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin, I think you may be confusing a heuristic with a causal relationship. Or maybe this is something that looks different from the outside than from the inside.</p>
<p>Imagine I make a testable prediction, and also wager a large sum of money that my prediction is correct. The fact that I have made this large wager might increase your confidence that my prediction is correct, and certainly should increase your estimation of my own confidence in my prediction. But I cannot increase my own confidence that my prediction was correct by betting on it.</p>
<p>The real problem with the objection is that no sensible person would feel that the author&#8217;s professed confidence that his ideas are correct is a good reason for the reader to believe that those ideas are correct in the first place. Before reading the book, it&#8217;s perfectly reasonable to suspect that the author has more confidence in his ideas than the facts merit. Most authors do. But it would be absurd to argue in a review of the book, &#8220;this book probably sucks, since most books do&#8221;.</p>
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