<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Top Docs No Healthier</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/08/top-school-docs.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/08/top-school-docs.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 03:06:37 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.3</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jeff Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/08/top-school-docs.html#comment-397569</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 16:39:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/08/top-docs-no-healthier.html#comment-397569</guid>
		<description>If I only have the following two pieces of info to eval a doctor, which is more important?

Tier B med school, but Board Certified
Tier A med school, but no Board Certification

An interested layman
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I only have the following two pieces of info to eval a doctor, which is more important?</p>
<p>Tier B med school, but Board Certified<br />
Tier A med school, but no Board Certification</p>
<p>An interested layman</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: David J. Balan</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/08/top-school-docs.html#comment-397568</link>
		<dc:creator>David J. Balan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 18:30:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/08/top-docs-no-healthier.html#comment-397568</guid>
		<description>Robin is right that the finding that second-tier docs take more time and do more tests may be because those docs&#039; lower status makes them more vulnerable to malpractice lawsuits.  But this seems like quite a stretch.  It seems much more plausible to me that the obvious interpretation is the correct one: the second-tier docs are somewhat inferior, but that inferiority takes the form of needing more time and tests to reach the same conclusion, rather than the form of reaching a different conclusion.  That is, it sounds to me like the first tier docs really are better in some meaningful sense.

Retired, a big part of the reason that the Medical College of Georgia is so much cheaper than Harvard is (I assume) that the former is a public school that is heavily subsidized by the state.  It&#039;s not anything like that much cheaper (though still probably a lot cheaper) when measured in the total cost per student.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin is right that the finding that second-tier docs take more time and do more tests may be because those docs&#8217; lower status makes them more vulnerable to malpractice lawsuits.  But this seems like quite a stretch.  It seems much more plausible to me that the obvious interpretation is the correct one: the second-tier docs are somewhat inferior, but that inferiority takes the form of needing more time and tests to reach the same conclusion, rather than the form of reaching a different conclusion.  That is, it sounds to me like the first tier docs really are better in some meaningful sense.</p>
<p>Retired, a big part of the reason that the Medical College of Georgia is so much cheaper than Harvard is (I assume) that the former is a public school that is heavily subsidized by the state.  It&#8217;s not anything like that much cheaper (though still probably a lot cheaper) when measured in the total cost per student.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Joseph Hertzlinger</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/08/top-school-docs.html#comment-397567</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph Hertzlinger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 06:57:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/08/top-docs-no-healthier.html#comment-397567</guid>
		<description>Let&#039;s see. The top doctors don&#039;t cure patients more often but they do save money.

I suppose another NBER paper showed that top financial advisors don&#039;t beat the market but they can perform better first aid.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s see. The top doctors don&#8217;t cure patients more often but they do save money.</p>
<p>I suppose another NBER paper showed that top financial advisors don&#8217;t beat the market but they can perform better first aid.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: THE BIZOP NEWS</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/08/top-school-docs.html#comment-397570</link>
		<dc:creator>THE BIZOP NEWS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 21:48:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/08/top-docs-no-healthier.html#comment-397570</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Are You Too Easily Impressed?&lt;/strong&gt;

Image via Wikipedia Robin Hanson certainly thinks so.He has provocative post at Overcoming Bias about the relationship between expertise, credentials and rationality.&quot;Yesterday I reported that top med...
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Are You Too Easily Impressed?</strong></p>
<p>Image via Wikipedia Robin Hanson certainly thinks so.He has provocative post at Overcoming Bias about the relationship between expertise, credentials and rationality.&#8221;Yesterday I reported that top med&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Thanatos Savehn</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/08/top-school-docs.html#comment-397566</link>
		<dc:creator>Thanatos Savehn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 16:48:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/08/top-docs-no-healthier.html#comment-397566</guid>
		<description>londenio: You&#039;re quite right. In my case the plaintiff&#039;s lawyer was trying to wire around the fact that IARC et al had found no evidence for carcinogenicity of the solvent in humans and only weak evidence in rats so his expert was testifying as to &quot;plausibility&quot;. The evidence that the plaintiff so metabolized the solvent was his cancer. Circular reasoning at its worst. After Daubert and its progeny, evidence that the solvent was not metabolized into the putative carcinogen put an end to the litigation but not until many millions had changed hands.

retired urologist: I&#039;ve been swimming in this cesspool a long time. Doctors are, or at least have been, net positives for society and the economy - and by a wide margin. Lawyers and law firms act either as protection rackets (think of criminal and divorce lawyers), guild agents and rent-seekers (corporate deal attorneys) or extortion rackets (litigation e.g. asbestos). I have seen things you cannot imagine. Fortunately, a little of it is finally beginning to come to light and some of the worst of the worst are heading off to prison. I see the profession as a net drag on the economy, a net corruptor of science and its perfection of sophistry a net negative for society - and by a wide margin.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>londenio: You&#8217;re quite right. In my case the plaintiff&#8217;s lawyer was trying to wire around the fact that IARC et al had found no evidence for carcinogenicity of the solvent in humans and only weak evidence in rats so his expert was testifying as to &#8220;plausibility&#8221;. The evidence that the plaintiff so metabolized the solvent was his cancer. Circular reasoning at its worst. After Daubert and its progeny, evidence that the solvent was not metabolized into the putative carcinogen put an end to the litigation but not until many millions had changed hands.</p>
<p>retired urologist: I&#8217;ve been swimming in this cesspool a long time. Doctors are, or at least have been, net positives for society and the economy &#8211; and by a wide margin. Lawyers and law firms act either as protection rackets (think of criminal and divorce lawyers), guild agents and rent-seekers (corporate deal attorneys) or extortion rackets (litigation e.g. asbestos). I have seen things you cannot imagine. Fortunately, a little of it is finally beginning to come to light and some of the worst of the worst are heading off to prison. I see the profession as a net drag on the economy, a net corruptor of science and its perfection of sophistry a net negative for society &#8211; and by a wide margin.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: retired urologist</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/08/top-school-docs.html#comment-397565</link>
		<dc:creator>retired urologist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 14:53:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/08/top-docs-no-healthier.html#comment-397565</guid>
		<description>@Tanatos (regarding the medical profession): &lt;i&gt;more and more it&#039;s like a medieval guild whereby the work ain&#039;t all that hard, it&#039;s getting the plumbers&#039; license what&#039;s the hard part.&lt;/i&gt;.

We already know that doctors statistically suck, but just wait until Robin Hanson gets around to publishing his series on the marginal value of attorneys in the US economy.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Tanatos (regarding the medical profession): <i>more and more it&#8217;s like a medieval guild whereby the work ain&#8217;t all that hard, it&#8217;s getting the plumbers&#8217; license what&#8217;s the hard part.</i>.</p>
<p>We already know that doctors statistically suck, but just wait until Robin Hanson gets around to publishing his series on the marginal value of attorneys in the US economy.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: londenio</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/08/top-school-docs.html#comment-397564</link>
		<dc:creator>londenio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 09:03:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/08/top-docs-no-healthier.html#comment-397564</guid>
		<description>Dear Thanatos,

Metabolic enzymes can catalyze reactions that would otherwise need extreme conditions if performed in a container in a lab. I know it is not the main point you are trying to make, but I think it is important to mention this.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Thanatos,</p>
<p>Metabolic enzymes can catalyze reactions that would otherwise need extreme conditions if performed in a container in a lab. I know it is not the main point you are trying to make, but I think it is important to mention this.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jor</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/08/top-school-docs.html#comment-397563</link>
		<dc:creator>Jor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 07:19:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/08/top-docs-no-healthier.html#comment-397563</guid>
		<description>30,000 pts were randomized in an ER to one of two different hospitals and then subsequently transferred to one of those hospitals? HEH, for all the concern about the medical profession by economists, its funny how their journal articles have piss-poor figures and tables :P.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>30,000 pts were randomized in an ER to one of two different hospitals and then subsequently transferred to one of those hospitals? HEH, for all the concern about the medical profession by economists, its funny how their journal articles have piss-poor figures and tables <img src='http://www.overcomingbias.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':P' class='wp-smiley' /> .</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Thanatos Savehn</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/08/top-school-docs.html#comment-397562</link>
		<dc:creator>Thanatos Savehn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 04:54:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/08/top-docs-no-healthier.html#comment-397562</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not a doctor, but I cross examine them all the time and I take a very dim view of the &quot;art&quot; part of their craft.

When I started practicing doctors were still treated with great reverence. Under the law, if a doctor said it, it was admissible and could support any verdict - however absurd &quot;it&quot; was. In one of my very first trials, second chair (i.e. box carrier/gopher) I got to see an M.D. testify that a particular chemical made by our client was metabolized into a carcinogen and so caused the plaintiff&#039;s cancer. I knew the testimony was coming and so had my Partner ready with Morrison &amp; Boyd&#039;s &quot;Organic Chemistry&quot; - the plan was to mount a theater of the absurd defense - demonstrating that the claimed reaction was highly unlikely since it would have required heating the plaintiff to 400 degrees and treating him with a platinum catalyst - a circumstance that should have proved fatal 25 years before - during his exposure. Instead the jury found in favor of the plaintiff - science be damned. Interviews with the jurors revealed their awe of doctors - doctors were to them modern day Gandalf&#039;s blessed with a deeper knowledge than chemistry textbooks.

The next 15 years were spent helping to pull the curtain aside and revealing the men behind it. The revelation that a not insubstantial number of doctors were just making it up as they went along followed. The profession never recovered. The &quot;evidence-based medicine&quot; movement has only exacerbated the problem.

Now it&#039;s pretty easy to narrow down your likely diagnosis and treatment before you go to the doctor. For example, my Dad was having problems with syncope recently. I googled his symptoms, past exams and treatments, and got him an appointment with the DeBakey heart folks here. I told my Dad the first thing they&#039;d likely do would be a tilt table test and eventually recommend a dual chamber pacemaker unless they found something neurological. And danged if that&#039;s not exactly what happened.

I don&#039;t mean to dis an entire profession because God knows there are lots of doctors doing one helluva job out there. But more and more it&#039;s like a medieval guild whereby the work ain&#039;t all that hard, it&#039;s getting the plumbers&#039; license what&#039;s the hard part.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not a doctor, but I cross examine them all the time and I take a very dim view of the &#8220;art&#8221; part of their craft.</p>
<p>When I started practicing doctors were still treated with great reverence. Under the law, if a doctor said it, it was admissible and could support any verdict &#8211; however absurd &#8220;it&#8221; was. In one of my very first trials, second chair (i.e. box carrier/gopher) I got to see an M.D. testify that a particular chemical made by our client was metabolized into a carcinogen and so caused the plaintiff&#8217;s cancer. I knew the testimony was coming and so had my Partner ready with Morrison &#038; Boyd&#8217;s &#8220;Organic Chemistry&#8221; &#8211; the plan was to mount a theater of the absurd defense &#8211; demonstrating that the claimed reaction was highly unlikely since it would have required heating the plaintiff to 400 degrees and treating him with a platinum catalyst &#8211; a circumstance that should have proved fatal 25 years before &#8211; during his exposure. Instead the jury found in favor of the plaintiff &#8211; science be damned. Interviews with the jurors revealed their awe of doctors &#8211; doctors were to them modern day Gandalf&#8217;s blessed with a deeper knowledge than chemistry textbooks.</p>
<p>The next 15 years were spent helping to pull the curtain aside and revealing the men behind it. The revelation that a not insubstantial number of doctors were just making it up as they went along followed. The profession never recovered. The &#8220;evidence-based medicine&#8221; movement has only exacerbated the problem.</p>
<p>Now it&#8217;s pretty easy to narrow down your likely diagnosis and treatment before you go to the doctor. For example, my Dad was having problems with syncope recently. I googled his symptoms, past exams and treatments, and got him an appointment with the DeBakey heart folks here. I told my Dad the first thing they&#8217;d likely do would be a tilt table test and eventually recommend a dual chamber pacemaker unless they found something neurological. And danged if that&#8217;s not exactly what happened.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t mean to dis an entire profession because God knows there are lots of doctors doing one helluva job out there. But more and more it&#8217;s like a medieval guild whereby the work ain&#8217;t all that hard, it&#8217;s getting the plumbers&#8217; license what&#8217;s the hard part.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: steven</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/08/top-school-docs.html#comment-397561</link>
		<dc:creator>steven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2008 20:29:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/08/top-docs-no-healthier.html#comment-397561</guid>
		<description>That looks like a pretty big confidence interval. Not finding an effect isn&#039;t the same thing as finding the lack of an effect.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That looks like a pretty big confidence interval. Not finding an effect isn&#8217;t the same thing as finding the lack of an effect.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

<!-- Performance optimized by W3 Total Cache. Learn more: http://www.w3-edge.com/wordpress-plugins/

Page Caching using disk (enhanced)
Database Caching using disk
Object Caching 442/459 objects using disk
Content Delivery Network via Amazon Web Services: S3: overcomingbias-assets.s3.amazonaws.com

Served from: www.overcomingbias.com @ 2012-02-11 22:18:20 -->
