Comments on: Top Teachers Ineffective http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/08/certified-teach.html Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future. Sun, 12 Feb 2012 02:20:49 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.3 By: Overcoming Bias : Academia’s Function http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/08/certified-teach.html#comment-430072 Overcoming Bias : Academia’s Function Sat, 11 Jul 2009 06:36:24 +0000 http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/08/top-teachers-ineffective.html#comment-430072 [...] here on my view that academia functions mainly to signal, much like art and sport. (See here here here here here here here here here.).  But for Andrew’s sake, let’s lay out the argument [...] [...] here on my view that academia functions mainly to signal, much like art and sport. (See here here here here here here here here here.).  But for Andrew’s sake, let’s lay out the argument [...]

]]> By: John http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/08/certified-teach.html#comment-397500 John Sun, 31 Aug 2008 00:40:59 +0000 http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/08/top-teachers-ineffective.html#comment-397500 Eliezer tutors people? Where do I sign up? Eliezer tutors people? Where do I sign up?

]]> By: Richard Hollerith http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/08/certified-teach.html#comment-397499 Richard Hollerith Thu, 28 Aug 2008 21:41:42 +0000 http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/08/top-teachers-ineffective.html#comment-397499 <blockquote>Vote of hands here, does *anyone* expect that teaching certifications correlate non-trivially with teaching quality?</blockquote> Not I. It would be great if there were graduate programs that could help a person become a more effective teacher, but the existing programs strike me as mostly worthless. I have no direct knowledge or experience of them, but the people whose judgement I trust almost universally hold them essentially worthless.

Vote of hands here, does *anyone* expect that teaching certifications correlate non-trivially with teaching quality?

Not I. It would be great if there were graduate programs that could help a person become a more effective teacher, but the existing programs strike me as mostly worthless. I have no direct knowledge or experience of them, but the people whose judgement I trust almost universally hold them essentially worthless.

]]> By: Richard Kennaway http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/08/certified-teach.html#comment-397498 Richard Kennaway Thu, 28 Aug 2008 20:21:03 +0000 http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/08/top-teachers-ineffective.html#comment-397498 Rafal wrote: <i>Richard Kennaway wrote: "Correlation is not transitive" Indeed, but I was under the impression that IQ and scholarly qualifications are both measures of a single quality</i> What do you mean by both being measures of a single quality? Their correlation surely falls well short of 1 (virtually all correlations reported in social science and psychology do), and therefore either could correlate positively with educational outcomes while the other correlates not at all or negatively. Rafal wrote:
Richard Kennaway wrote: “Correlation is not transitive”

Indeed, but I was under the impression that IQ and scholarly qualifications are both measures of a single quality

What do you mean by both being measures of a single quality? Their correlation surely falls well short of 1 (virtually all correlations reported in social science and psychology do), and therefore either could correlate positively with educational outcomes while the other correlates not at all or negatively.

]]> By: Rafal Smigrodzki http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/08/certified-teach.html#comment-397497 Rafal Smigrodzki Thu, 28 Aug 2008 17:46:19 +0000 http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/08/top-teachers-ineffective.html#comment-397497 Richard Kennaway wrote: "Correlation is not transitive" Indeed, but I was under the impression that IQ and scholarly qualifications are both measures of a single quality, and the absence of correlation between educational outcomes and teacher qualifications would in this situations imply they are not. Rafal Richard Kennaway wrote: “Correlation is not transitive”

Indeed, but I was under the impression that IQ and scholarly qualifications are both measures of a single quality, and the absence of correlation between educational outcomes and teacher qualifications would in this situations imply they are not.

Rafal

]]> By: Richard Kennaway http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/08/certified-teach.html#comment-397496 Richard Kennaway Thu, 28 Aug 2008 06:56:26 +0000 http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/08/top-teachers-ineffective.html#comment-397496 Rafal Smigrodzki : <i>if teachers' IQ's correlate with outcomes, and higher IQ teachers are better at passing qualification tests (i.e. qualifications correlate with IQ), then qualifications should correlate with outcomes.</i> Correlation is not transitive. Rafal Smigrodzki : if teachers’ IQ’s correlate with outcomes, and higher IQ teachers are better at passing qualification tests (i.e. qualifications correlate with IQ), then qualifications should correlate with outcomes.

Correlation is not transitive.

]]> By: TGGP http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/08/certified-teach.html#comment-397495 TGGP Thu, 28 Aug 2008 06:00:25 +0000 http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/08/top-teachers-ineffective.html#comment-397495 Tyler:Tyrone :: Robin:<a href="http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aovercomingbias.com+ramone&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.ubuntu:en-US:unofficial&client=firefox-a" rel="nofollow">Ramone</a> Tyler:Tyrone :: Robin:Ramone

]]> By: Hopefully Anonymous http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/08/certified-teach.html#comment-397494 Hopefully Anonymous Thu, 28 Aug 2008 03:56:04 +0000 http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/08/top-teachers-ineffective.html#comment-397494 Robin, I think what I'm pointing out is less a place to add disclaimers to avoid gotchas (I find them annoying too) than an area that would seem to be of central concern for someone interested in overcoming bias. If a group of people are successfully overcoming bias in particular situation, I think it's a very interesting question why they're overcoming that bias -what's different about them. I'm surprised that you don't seem to have that interest here (or in a variety of other similar topics). Robin,
I think what I’m pointing out is less a place to add disclaimers to avoid gotchas (I find them annoying too) than an area that would seem to be of central concern for someone interested in overcoming bias. If a group of people are successfully overcoming bias in particular situation, I think it’s a very interesting question why they’re overcoming that bias -what’s different about them.

I’m surprised that you don’t seem to have that interest here (or in a variety of other similar topics).

]]> By: Robin Hanson http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/08/certified-teach.html#comment-397493 Robin Hanson Thu, 28 Aug 2008 03:42:42 +0000 http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/08/top-teachers-ineffective.html#comment-397493 Hopefully, I tire of adding disclaimers to every sentence. If I start out saying "most of the demand" I figure I can later just say "folks don't like" without it being assumed I mean absolutely everyone absolutely all of the time. Hopefully, I tire of adding disclaimers to every sentence. If I start out saying “most of the demand” I figure I can later just say “folks don’t like” without it being assumed I mean absolutely everyone absolutely all of the time.

]]> By: Hopefully Anonymous http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/08/certified-teach.html#comment-397492 Hopefully Anonymous Thu, 28 Aug 2008 03:38:37 +0000 http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/08/top-teachers-ineffective.html#comment-397492 Robin, I doubt ALL people would still prefer a more credentialed teacher over a less credentialed teacher, or a more credentialed doctor over a less credentialed doctor, if the best empiricism indicated no benefit in doing so. So where's the interest in seeing what is different about these two sets of people? Instead, you write: "I expect patients are willing to pay more for top med school docs, and parents are willing to pay more for educated and certified teachers. And I expect that this would continue even if patients and parents knew the above results. I suspect most of the demand for teachers, doctors, and many other professionals comes from folks wanting to affiliate with certified-as-impressive people. And merely making patients healthier or making students perform better doesn't count much toward impressiveness, relative to academia-certified impressiveness. But folks don't like to admit this directly; they'd rather pretend they care more than they do about other outputs. Which is why folks don't want to hear about the above results. The media will oblige them, and so they will continue in their preferred delusions. Bet on it." That's where you went from what many people might do, to a claim that all people will do this. Or at least a seeming disinterest in what's different about people that don't make doctor or teacher selections based on academia-certified impressiveness if there's no tangible health or education gain. Are still lost about the criticism in my earlier comment? Robin, I doubt ALL people would still prefer a more credentialed teacher over a less credentialed teacher, or a more credentialed doctor over a less credentialed doctor, if the best empiricism indicated no benefit in doing so. So where’s the interest in seeing what is different about these two sets of people? Instead, you write:

“I expect patients are willing to pay more for top med school docs, and parents are willing to pay more for educated and certified teachers. And I expect that this would continue even if patients and parents knew the above results. I suspect most of the demand for teachers, doctors, and many other professionals comes from folks wanting to affiliate with certified-as-impressive people. And merely making patients healthier or making students perform better doesn’t count much toward impressiveness, relative to academia-certified impressiveness.

But folks don’t like to admit this directly; they’d rather pretend they care more than they do about other outputs. Which is why folks don’t want to hear about the above results. The media will oblige them, and so they will continue in their preferred delusions. Bet on it.”

That’s where you went from what many people might do, to a claim that all people will do this. Or at least a seeming disinterest in what’s different about people that don’t make doctor or teacher selections based on academia-certified impressiveness if there’s no tangible health or education gain.

Are still lost about the criticism in my earlier comment?

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