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	<title>Comments on: Bias in Political Conversation</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/07/bias-in-politic.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: Roger Sweeny</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/07/bias-in-politic.html#comment-400125</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Sweeny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 20:59:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/07/bias-in-political-conversation.html#comment-400125</guid>
		<description>Lee A. Arnold,

I think you are largely right but I would be willing to bet my life that between the beginning and end of the Reagan administration, all 6 of these went up: 1)federal health regulation, 2)non-federal health regulation, 3)federal safety regulation, 4)non-federal safety regulation, 5)federal environmental regulation, 6)non-federal environmental regulation.

Same for George W. Bush.  Twelve deltas, all positive.

&lt;i&gt;Of course modern conservatives didn&#039;t help their own cause much: they stood up with leaders who were on the wrong side of civil rights, womens&#039; rights and gay rights...&lt;/i&gt;

It is interesting to compare the attitude of most academics toward conservatives and toward libertarians.  Libertarians never stood up with those leaders but they often get lumped in as not being worth taking seriously.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lee A. Arnold,</p>
<p>I think you are largely right but I would be willing to bet my life that between the beginning and end of the Reagan administration, all 6 of these went up: 1)federal health regulation, 2)non-federal health regulation, 3)federal safety regulation, 4)non-federal safety regulation, 5)federal environmental regulation, 6)non-federal environmental regulation.</p>
<p>Same for George W. Bush.  Twelve deltas, all positive.</p>
<p><i>Of course modern conservatives didn&#8217;t help their own cause much: they stood up with leaders who were on the wrong side of civil rights, womens&#8217; rights and gay rights&#8230;</i></p>
<p>It is interesting to compare the attitude of most academics toward conservatives and toward libertarians.  Libertarians never stood up with those leaders but they often get lumped in as not being worth taking seriously.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Nelson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/07/bias-in-politic.html#comment-400124</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Nelson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 14:59:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/07/bias-in-political-conversation.html#comment-400124</guid>
		<description>See Inglehart, Welzel in Modernization, Cultural Change, and Democracy.  They provide solid data from the World Values Survey documenting how fluctuations in human autonomy are strongly predictive of prevailing human values systems.  More autonomy, greater desire for choice, self-expression, individualism.  Less autonomy, greater reliance on religion or authoritarian types of government.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See Inglehart, Welzel in Modernization, Cultural Change, and Democracy.  They provide solid data from the World Values Survey documenting how fluctuations in human autonomy are strongly predictive of prevailing human values systems.  More autonomy, greater desire for choice, self-expression, individualism.  Less autonomy, greater reliance on religion or authoritarian types of government.</p>
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		<title>By: Caledonian</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/07/bias-in-politic.html#comment-400123</link>
		<dc:creator>Caledonian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 16:25:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/07/bias-in-political-conversation.html#comment-400123</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Caledonian, Even if &quot;smarter and better-educated&quot; != &quot;rational&quot;, I think that smarter and better-educated should tend towards rationalism.&lt;/blockquote&gt;  Then I doubt that you appreciate what the function of higher education is.  It might be helpful for you to review the origins of the university system.

I also suspect that you&#039;re using &#039;smarter&#039; in an informal and vernacular sense.  The more specific meanings of intelligence do not result in any clear trend towards rationalism.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Caledonian, Even if &#8220;smarter and better-educated&#8221; != &#8220;rational&#8221;, I think that smarter and better-educated should tend towards rationalism.</p></blockquote>
<p>  Then I doubt that you appreciate what the function of higher education is.  It might be helpful for you to review the origins of the university system.</p>
<p>I also suspect that you&#8217;re using &#8216;smarter&#8217; in an informal and vernacular sense.  The more specific meanings of intelligence do not result in any clear trend towards rationalism.</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Buck</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/07/bias-in-politic.html#comment-400122</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Buck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:02:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/07/bias-in-political-conversation.html#comment-400122</guid>
		<description>Robin did post about this same finding last November, but readers&#039; long-term memory will be best activated if periodically reminded of the same information.  (OK, I forgot.)

Q says, &quot;it&#039;s only as self-serving as the declaration that the liberal consensus among academics &#039;looks like herd behavior.&#039;&quot;

Maybe I should clarify: as to issues where something like an objective answer exists, the fact that lots of intelligent people believe the same thing isn&#039;t necessarily herd behavior (although it well could be). But many political issues boil down to subjective weightings of incommensurable values, where no objective solution is in the cards (e.g., the right of the fetus to live vs. the right of the woman to control her body, or the intangible value of protecting certain endangered species vs. the value of economic development).  When you find a group of people who all take one side of such an issue, I don&#039;t think it&#039;s &quot;self-serving&quot; to suspect herd behavior of some kind.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin did post about this same finding last November, but readers&#8217; long-term memory will be best activated if periodically reminded of the same information.  (OK, I forgot.)</p>
<p>Q says, &#8220;it&#8217;s only as self-serving as the declaration that the liberal consensus among academics &#8216;looks like herd behavior.&#8217;&#8221;</p>
<p>Maybe I should clarify: as to issues where something like an objective answer exists, the fact that lots of intelligent people believe the same thing isn&#8217;t necessarily herd behavior (although it well could be). But many political issues boil down to subjective weightings of incommensurable values, where no objective solution is in the cards (e.g., the right of the fetus to live vs. the right of the woman to control her body, or the intangible value of protecting certain endangered species vs. the value of economic development).  When you find a group of people who all take one side of such an issue, I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s &#8220;self-serving&#8221; to suspect herd behavior of some kind.</p>
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		<title>By: Shmuel</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/07/bias-in-politic.html#comment-400121</link>
		<dc:creator>Shmuel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 13:42:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/07/bias-in-political-conversation.html#comment-400121</guid>
		<description>&quot;when a bunch of superior intellects independently settle on the objectively correct viewpoint&quot;

You&#039;ve obviously never read the comments at the Huffington Post or the Daily Kos.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;when a bunch of superior intellects independently settle on the objectively correct viewpoint&#8221;</p>
<p>You&#8217;ve obviously never read the comments at the Huffington Post or the Daily Kos.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee A. Arnold</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/07/bias-in-politic.html#comment-400120</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee A. Arnold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 05:16:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/07/bias-in-political-conversation.html#comment-400120</guid>
		<description>I guessed Mutz&#039; results long ago!  In general there is more open and friendly talk across varying viewpoints among today&#039;s bluecollars than among high-income well-educated.  I circulate among both.  It should be pointed out that &quot;well-educated&quot; does not mean broadly-educated, in our time.  In fact &quot;well-educated&quot; is a bit of a misnomer:  it should be &quot;well-specialized&quot; or something.  Some of these people you couldn&#039;t trust to take out the trash, because they would put it in the wrong dumpster, or get into an argument with the garbageman.  Since Kuhnian paradigms change with time, since for example market economics was presumed to be the default organizing position for society even though none of its theoretical justifications could be calculated further than two-person exchanges, while the presumption of self-interest was a objectionable bias obvious to Adam Smith, Alfred Marshall, and your grandmother and is regularly violated in new experimental studies, it is  hard to claim that &quot;superior intellects independently settle on the objectively correct viewpoint.&quot;  I realize you were joking.  My own friendships extend from extreme left to extreme right; I doubt I could get some of them in the same room together.   I think the reason that liberals dominate in universities, (if they really do, I doubt whether it&#039;s true in the physical sciences and engineering,) is because there is a long-term thing lasting decades which could be called &quot;intellectual fashion,&quot; and it gets buttressed by self-reinforcement, hiring practices, and the like.  Of course modern conservatives didn&#039;t help their own cause much: they stood up with leaders who were on the wrong side of civil rights, womens&#039; rights and gay rights, they tend to think that poor people get what they deserve (often relying upon market economics as the justification,) and their recent heroes have been Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush, two uneducated men who increased the debt, shifted the distribution of the tax burden downward, and deregulated health, safety, and environmental issues to no good ends.   God knows the modern liberals can be insufferable, but what&#039;s the alternative?  A little intellectual humility would first be called for.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guessed Mutz&#8217; results long ago!  In general there is more open and friendly talk across varying viewpoints among today&#8217;s bluecollars than among high-income well-educated.  I circulate among both.  It should be pointed out that &#8220;well-educated&#8221; does not mean broadly-educated, in our time.  In fact &#8220;well-educated&#8221; is a bit of a misnomer:  it should be &#8220;well-specialized&#8221; or something.  Some of these people you couldn&#8217;t trust to take out the trash, because they would put it in the wrong dumpster, or get into an argument with the garbageman.  Since Kuhnian paradigms change with time, since for example market economics was presumed to be the default organizing position for society even though none of its theoretical justifications could be calculated further than two-person exchanges, while the presumption of self-interest was a objectionable bias obvious to Adam Smith, Alfred Marshall, and your grandmother and is regularly violated in new experimental studies, it is  hard to claim that &#8220;superior intellects independently settle on the objectively correct viewpoint.&#8221;  I realize you were joking.  My own friendships extend from extreme left to extreme right; I doubt I could get some of them in the same room together.   I think the reason that liberals dominate in universities, (if they really do, I doubt whether it&#8217;s true in the physical sciences and engineering,) is because there is a long-term thing lasting decades which could be called &#8220;intellectual fashion,&#8221; and it gets buttressed by self-reinforcement, hiring practices, and the like.  Of course modern conservatives didn&#8217;t help their own cause much: they stood up with leaders who were on the wrong side of civil rights, womens&#8217; rights and gay rights, they tend to think that poor people get what they deserve (often relying upon market economics as the justification,) and their recent heroes have been Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush, two uneducated men who increased the debt, shifted the distribution of the tax burden downward, and deregulated health, safety, and environmental issues to no good ends.   God knows the modern liberals can be insufferable, but what&#8217;s the alternative?  A little intellectual humility would first be called for.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/07/bias-in-politic.html#comment-400119</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 03:58:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/07/bias-in-political-conversation.html#comment-400119</guid>
		<description>Caledonian, Even if &quot;smarter and better-educated&quot; != &quot;rational&quot;, I think that smarter and better-educated should tend towards rationalism.  I think this because the educational ideal (at least in the math,science,humanities university environment) is to cultivate rational thinking, and presumably, more intelligent people can better acquire and use the techniques education develops.

You are right that intelligent folks can create intricate justifications, but it isn&#039;t clear to me that this ability means they cannot distinguish rationalizations from rationalism.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Caledonian, Even if &#8220;smarter and better-educated&#8221; != &#8220;rational&#8221;, I think that smarter and better-educated should tend towards rationalism.  I think this because the educational ideal (at least in the math,science,humanities university environment) is to cultivate rational thinking, and presumably, more intelligent people can better acquire and use the techniques education develops.</p>
<p>You are right that intelligent folks can create intricate justifications, but it isn&#8217;t clear to me that this ability means they cannot distinguish rationalizations from rationalism.</p>
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		<title>By: Hopefully Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/07/bias-in-politic.html#comment-400118</link>
		<dc:creator>Hopefully Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 02:55:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/07/bias-in-political-conversation.html#comment-400118</guid>
		<description>&quot;I don&#039;t think most people appreciate that what is generally meant by intelligence has nothing to do with the quality of decision-making. Intelligent people create more elaborate and intricate justifications for their beliefs. It takes distinctly different qualities to sort sense from nonsense.&quot;

Caledonian, I disagree. I think intelligent people (of the only type of intelligence that matters IMO, the ability to maximize persistence odds) are those that sense from nonsense. This is different than (1) creating elaborate and intricate external propaganda to get others to act in the intelligent person&#039;s interest, or (2) creating and internalizing personal belief ideas and narratives that on their surface are irrational, but optimize management of system 1 &quot;subconscious&quot; intelligence to meet the rationally optimized goals devised by the system 2 intelligence.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I don&#8217;t think most people appreciate that what is generally meant by intelligence has nothing to do with the quality of decision-making. Intelligent people create more elaborate and intricate justifications for their beliefs. It takes distinctly different qualities to sort sense from nonsense.&#8221;</p>
<p>Caledonian, I disagree. I think intelligent people (of the only type of intelligence that matters IMO, the ability to maximize persistence odds) are those that sense from nonsense. This is different than (1) creating elaborate and intricate external propaganda to get others to act in the intelligent person&#8217;s interest, or (2) creating and internalizing personal belief ideas and narratives that on their surface are irrational, but optimize management of system 1 &#8220;subconscious&#8221; intelligence to meet the rationally optimized goals devised by the system 2 intelligence.</p>
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		<title>By: Hopefully Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/07/bias-in-politic.html#comment-400117</link>
		<dc:creator>Hopefully Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 02:50:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/07/bias-in-political-conversation.html#comment-400117</guid>
		<description>With expressions of belief like Romeo Stevens, I see the fun in Cowen&#039;s suggestion that people assign probabilities (of truth/accuracy) to their beliefs.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With expressions of belief like Romeo Stevens, I see the fun in Cowen&#8217;s suggestion that people assign probabilities (of truth/accuracy) to their beliefs.</p>
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		<title>By: Caledonian</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/07/bias-in-politic.html#comment-400116</link>
		<dc:creator>Caledonian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 01:53:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/07/bias-in-political-conversation.html#comment-400116</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Naturally it may be theoretically possible to predict such reversals, but this seems to be not a trivial task.&lt;/blockquote&gt;  The fact is made more complex by the reality that people often find it convenient to conceal their intentions and motivations, and so describe their positions using names and terms that are grossly inaccurate.

Conservatism, as a political movement, has little to do with conservatism as a concept.    A similar point holds for liberalism - what is formally called &#039;classical liberalism&#039; is incompatible with Liberalism as a political identity today, and is generally considered a form of conservatism.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Naturally it may be theoretically possible to predict such reversals, but this seems to be not a trivial task.</p></blockquote>
<p>  The fact is made more complex by the reality that people often find it convenient to conceal their intentions and motivations, and so describe their positions using names and terms that are grossly inaccurate.</p>
<p>Conservatism, as a political movement, has little to do with conservatism as a concept.    A similar point holds for liberalism &#8211; what is formally called &#8216;classical liberalism&#8217; is incompatible with Liberalism as a political identity today, and is generally considered a form of conservatism.</p>
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