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	<title>Comments on: Tyler Vid on Disagreement</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/06/tyler-vid-on-di.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: John 4</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/06/tyler-vid-on-di.html#comment-450118</link>
		<dc:creator>John 4</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jun 2010 20:46:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/06/tyler-vid-on-disagreement.html#comment-450118</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sorry, but the argument at the link is mistaken. It is plausible (at least) to think that, if God exists, God is a necessary being. (That&#039;s part of the concept of God - we can give arguments for why it should be a part of the concept (the concept &lt;em&gt;perfect being&lt;/em&gt; would be incomplete without it) - and it doesn&#039;t appear to be in tension with any of the other parts of the concept of God (perfect goodness, maximal knowledge and power, etc.). But necessary beings explain themselves. To wit, if it is necessarily true that God exists, then it is necessary that it is necessarily true that God exists. And so on, ad infinitum. Hence, nothing is left unexplained. (There is no more full or complete explanation for P than that it is impossible that not-P.) 

But it seems extraordinarily counterintuitive to think that a particular event such as the Big Bang, or a very large physical object such as the cosmos, could have happened/exist of necessity. Indeed, we know of no other events that happened of necessity, and of no other physical things that exist of necessity. (Note that all or almost all non-physical things/things outside of spacetime, like numbers, triangles, properties, etc. exist of necessity. So it is not unnatural or implausible to think that God exists of necessity as well.) Hence, the proposition that it is necessary that&lt;em&gt; if the Big Bang occurred, it was necessary for it to occur&lt;/em&gt; has much less going for it than the proposition that &lt;em&gt;if God exists, it is necessary that God exists&lt;/em&gt;. This despite the fact that the proposition tha&lt;em&gt;t the Big Bang occurred&lt;/em&gt; has a lot more going for it than the proposition &lt;em&gt;that God exists&lt;/em&gt;.

I&#039;m not arguing here that the cosmological argument is compelling. I&#039;m just pointing out that this particular (and common) criticism of it is misguided.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sorry, but the argument at the link is mistaken. It is plausible (at least) to think that, if God exists, God is a necessary being. (That&#8217;s part of the concept of God &#8211; we can give arguments for why it should be a part of the concept (the concept <em>perfect being</em> would be incomplete without it) &#8211; and it doesn&#8217;t appear to be in tension with any of the other parts of the concept of God (perfect goodness, maximal knowledge and power, etc.). But necessary beings explain themselves. To wit, if it is necessarily true that God exists, then it is necessary that it is necessarily true that God exists. And so on, ad infinitum. Hence, nothing is left unexplained. (There is no more full or complete explanation for P than that it is impossible that not-P.) </p>
<p>But it seems extraordinarily counterintuitive to think that a particular event such as the Big Bang, or a very large physical object such as the cosmos, could have happened/exist of necessity. Indeed, we know of no other events that happened of necessity, and of no other physical things that exist of necessity. (Note that all or almost all non-physical things/things outside of spacetime, like numbers, triangles, properties, etc. exist of necessity. So it is not unnatural or implausible to think that God exists of necessity as well.) Hence, the proposition that it is necessary that<em> if the Big Bang occurred, it was necessary for it to occur</em> has much less going for it than the proposition that <em>if God exists, it is necessary that God exists</em>. This despite the fact that the proposition tha<em>t the Big Bang occurred</em> has a lot more going for it than the proposition <em>that God exists</em>.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not arguing here that the cosmological argument is compelling. I&#8217;m just pointing out that this particular (and common) criticism of it is misguided.</p>
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		<title>By: John 4</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/06/tyler-vid-on-di.html#comment-450096</link>
		<dc:creator>John 4</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jun 2010 17:39:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/06/tyler-vid-on-disagreement.html#comment-450096</guid>
		<description>It would be rather entertaining to see someone try to defend this claim.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would be rather entertaining to see someone try to defend this claim.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Tarleton</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/06/tyler-vid-on-di.html#comment-401682</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Tarleton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jul 2008 22:29:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/06/tyler-vid-on-disagreement.html#comment-401682</guid>
		<description>*Switch &quot;and&quot; and &quot;but&quot; in that last sentence.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>*Switch &#8220;and&#8221; and &#8220;but&#8221; in that last sentence.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Tarleton</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/06/tyler-vid-on-di.html#comment-401681</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Tarleton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jul 2008 22:28:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/06/tyler-vid-on-disagreement.html#comment-401681</guid>
		<description>One reason you might not be able to give trillion to one odds against at least any statements about the local near future (like &quot;will this random number I generate between 1 and 1 trillion be 189,234,859,124&quot;) is if the probability that you&#039;re in a practical-joke simulation where the first thing that you assign tiny odds to will happen is &gt;&gt;10^-9 and &gt;&gt;the probability of being in a simulation where it&#039;s guaranteed &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; to happen.

I might be able to assign a probability to a &quot;normal, reasonable concept of &#039;God&#039;&quot; if I knew what that meant, but I agree that simulators aren&#039;t part of the common-language concept, and I really don&#039;t know what people mean when they say they believe in a &quot;universal spirit&quot; or &quot;impersonal force&quot;, if they&#039;re &lt;a href=&#039;http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/07/belief-in-belie.html&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;even&lt;/a&gt; &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/professing-and-.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;expressing&lt;/a&gt; a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/belief-as-attir.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;proposition&lt;/a&gt; at all.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One reason you might not be able to give trillion to one odds against at least any statements about the local near future (like &#8220;will this random number I generate between 1 and 1 trillion be 189,234,859,124&#8243;) is if the probability that you&#8217;re in a practical-joke simulation where the first thing that you assign tiny odds to will happen is >>10^-9 and >>the probability of being in a simulation where it&#8217;s guaranteed <i>not</i> to happen.</p>
<p>I might be able to assign a probability to a &#8220;normal, reasonable concept of &#8216;God&#8217;&#8221; if I knew what that meant, but I agree that simulators aren&#8217;t part of the common-language concept, and I really don&#8217;t know what people mean when they say they believe in a &#8220;universal spirit&#8221; or &#8220;impersonal force&#8221;, if they&#8217;re <a href='http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/07/belief-in-belie.html' rel="nofollow">even</a> <a href="http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/professing-and-.html" rel="nofollow">expressing</a> a <a href="http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/08/belief-as-attir.html" rel="nofollow">proposition</a> at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Hopefully Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/06/tyler-vid-on-di.html#comment-401680</link>
		<dc:creator>Hopefully Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jul 2008 19:02:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/06/tyler-vid-on-disagreement.html#comment-401680</guid>
		<description>Unknown, I think you&#039;re making a false distinction. I&#039;m very interested in reading the input of others about this.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unknown, I think you&#8217;re making a false distinction. I&#8217;m very interested in reading the input of others about this.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/06/tyler-vid-on-di.html#comment-401679</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jun 2008 12:03:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/06/tyler-vid-on-disagreement.html#comment-401679</guid>
		<description>See my added above.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See my added above.</p>
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		<title>By: Unknown</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/06/tyler-vid-on-di.html#comment-401678</link>
		<dc:creator>Unknown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 19:14:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/06/tyler-vid-on-disagreement.html#comment-401678</guid>
		<description>HA: I think you need to distinguish between calculated probabilities (i.e. in effect frequency calculations) and humanly calibrated probabilities (i.e. subjective estimates.) Robin and Tyler are talking about the latter, and odds of a trillion to one for a subjective estimate are indeed absurd.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>HA: I think you need to distinguish between calculated probabilities (i.e. in effect frequency calculations) and humanly calibrated probabilities (i.e. subjective estimates.) Robin and Tyler are talking about the latter, and odds of a trillion to one for a subjective estimate are indeed absurd.</p>
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		<title>By: Hopefully Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/06/tyler-vid-on-di.html#comment-401677</link>
		<dc:creator>Hopefully Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:03:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/06/tyler-vid-on-disagreement.html#comment-401677</guid>
		<description>Hal, thanks for your reply. I&#039;m more interested commentary on the first, second, and last sentences of my last comment. (The other stuff has been done to death, and in my opinion encourages dialectical stupidism, much like whether blacks have lower IQ than whites, whether women are underrepresented in elite science positions because they have less extreme IQ variability, and whether the answer to all our political problems is less government regulation and lower taxes.)
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hal, thanks for your reply. I&#8217;m more interested commentary on the first, second, and last sentences of my last comment. (The other stuff has been done to death, and in my opinion encourages dialectical stupidism, much like whether blacks have lower IQ than whites, whether women are underrepresented in elite science positions because they have less extreme IQ variability, and whether the answer to all our political problems is less government regulation and lower taxes.)</p>
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		<title>By: Hal Finney</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/06/tyler-vid-on-di.html#comment-401676</link>
		<dc:creator>Hal Finney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:03:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/06/tyler-vid-on-disagreement.html#comment-401676</guid>
		<description>Hopefully A, many people describe their believe in God as a rather vague sense of spirituality. For example a report came out this week about a Pew Forum survey of American religious belief. Page 26 of &lt;a href=&quot;http://religions.pewforum.org/pdf/report2religious-landscape-study-chapter-1.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;chapter 1&lt;/a&gt; finds that 92% believe in &quot;God or a universal spirit&quot;. Page 27 then delves into conceptions of God and finds that 60% believe in a personal God (that one could have a conversation with, apparently), while 25% see God as an &quot;impersonal force&quot; and 5% say other/both. It seems that this idea of God as a &quot;universal spirit&quot; is rather more common than many nonbelievers&#039; perceptions of how religious people think. I don&#039;t know how this fits in your category of a &quot;normal, reasonable&quot; concept of God.

While obviously not many people believe that we are literally living in a simulation created by our descendants, sometimes you&#039;ll hear it said that we are dreams in the mind of God, which is not so different from a simulation in the mind of a future AI. See also Tipler&#039;s notion of God as the Omega Point at the end of the universe, when infinite computational resources become possible and all possible pasts are re-created. All these ideas blur together and make it hard IMO to rule out the more general notions of Intelligent Design. I agree however that the more specifics you layer on that general idea, the less probable it becomes.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hopefully A, many people describe their believe in God as a rather vague sense of spirituality. For example a report came out this week about a Pew Forum survey of American religious belief. Page 26 of <a href="http://religions.pewforum.org/pdf/report2religious-landscape-study-chapter-1.pdf" rel="nofollow">chapter 1</a> finds that 92% believe in &#8220;God or a universal spirit&#8221;. Page 27 then delves into conceptions of God and finds that 60% believe in a personal God (that one could have a conversation with, apparently), while 25% see God as an &#8220;impersonal force&#8221; and 5% say other/both. It seems that this idea of God as a &#8220;universal spirit&#8221; is rather more common than many nonbelievers&#8217; perceptions of how religious people think. I don&#8217;t know how this fits in your category of a &#8220;normal, reasonable&#8221; concept of God.</p>
<p>While obviously not many people believe that we are literally living in a simulation created by our descendants, sometimes you&#8217;ll hear it said that we are dreams in the mind of God, which is not so different from a simulation in the mind of a future AI. See also Tipler&#8217;s notion of God as the Omega Point at the end of the universe, when infinite computational resources become possible and all possible pasts are re-created. All these ideas blur together and make it hard IMO to rule out the more general notions of Intelligent Design. I agree however that the more specifics you layer on that general idea, the less probable it becomes.</p>
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		<title>By: Hopefully Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/06/tyler-vid-on-di.html#comment-401675</link>
		<dc:creator>Hopefully Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:18:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/06/tyler-vid-on-disagreement.html#comment-401675</guid>
		<description>What can we plausibly give trillion or one or lower odds to? It seems to me we can to lots of things.

As for people redefining a normal, reasonable concept of &quot;God&quot; to whatever created a simulation that we may be a part of, it&#039;s hard to call that anything more than intellectual cheating. I don&#039;t think it&#039;s worth my energy to explain why. It seems to me that the odds of the existence of a normal, reasonable concept of &quot;God&quot; would be on the order of smaller than 1 in a trillion, and much, much lower than 1 in a hundred, based on comparing the concept to things that have reliably been calculated to have 1 in a trillion or smaller odds. But I&#039;d like to see this concept more rigorously hashed out (as a general way of being able to reliably give things odds this low in informal mental estimations and sortings).
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What can we plausibly give trillion or one or lower odds to? It seems to me we can to lots of things.</p>
<p>As for people redefining a normal, reasonable concept of &#8220;God&#8221; to whatever created a simulation that we may be a part of, it&#8217;s hard to call that anything more than intellectual cheating. I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s worth my energy to explain why. It seems to me that the odds of the existence of a normal, reasonable concept of &#8220;God&#8221; would be on the order of smaller than 1 in a trillion, and much, much lower than 1 in a hundred, based on comparing the concept to things that have reliably been calculated to have 1 in a trillion or smaller odds. But I&#8217;d like to see this concept more rigorously hashed out (as a general way of being able to reliably give things odds this low in informal mental estimations and sortings).</p>
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