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	<title>Comments on: History of Transition Inequality</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/06/singularity-ine.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: Overcoming Bias : The Future Of Inequality</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/06/singularity-ine.html#comment-696186</link>
		<dc:creator>Overcoming Bias : The Future Of Inequality</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2012 03:36:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/06/history-of-transition-inequality.html#comment-696186</guid>
		<description>[...] few (3.6) years ago I wrote about the inequality over time induced by the big transitions, such as from primates to foragers to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] few (3.6) years ago I wrote about the inequality over time induced by the big transitions, such as from primates to foragers to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Overcoming Bias : Flexible Law Wins</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/06/singularity-ine.html#comment-459365</link>
		<dc:creator>Overcoming Bias : Flexible Law Wins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Nov 2010 21:02:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/06/history-of-transition-inequality.html#comment-459365</guid>
		<description>[...] places gained advantage by being first with the new mode. While such transition-induced inequality seems to have fallen over time, large inequalities will probably occur with a new future mode, as some [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] places gained advantage by being first with the new mode. While such transition-induced inequality seems to have fallen over time, large inequalities will probably occur with a new future mode, as some [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Tyler</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/06/singularity-ine.html#comment-401882</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Tyler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 21:53:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/06/history-of-transition-inequality.html#comment-401882</guid>
		<description>Re: &lt;EM&gt;What other single species has caused a mass extinction (except possibly, as you say, the first oxygen producer)?&lt;/EM&gt;

Something like that happens whenever there is a &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://originoflife.net/takeover/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Genetic Takeover&lt;/A&gt;.

For example, probably at one point only one individual used DNA.  Now all known life on Earth is descended from that individual - and all the RNA-based organisms have gone extinct.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: <em>What other single species has caused a mass extinction (except possibly, as you say, the first oxygen producer)?</em></p>
<p>Something like that happens whenever there is a <a HREF="http://originoflife.net/takeover/" rel="nofollow">Genetic Takeover</a>.</p>
<p>For example, probably at one point only one individual used DNA.  Now all known life on Earth is descended from that individual &#8211; and all the RNA-based organisms have gone extinct.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Tarleton</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/06/singularity-ine.html#comment-401881</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Tarleton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 23:06:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/06/history-of-transition-inequality.html#comment-401881</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;In fact I can only think of one sense in which multicellular organisms dominate:

&quot;A probably tiny initial lineage soon came to dominate the tiny tiny tiny tiny fraction of life on Earth that we humans find interesting to look at.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

What other single species has caused &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Extinction&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;a mass extinction&lt;/a&gt; (except possibly, as you say, the first oxygen producer)?

The relevant inequalities, it seems to me, are not of genetic or even memetic fitness but of power, as vague as that is.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>In fact I can only think of one sense in which multicellular organisms dominate:</p>
<p>&#8220;A probably tiny initial lineage soon came to dominate the tiny tiny tiny tiny fraction of life on Earth that we humans find interesting to look at.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>What other single species has caused <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Extinction" rel="nofollow">a mass extinction</a> (except possibly, as you say, the first oxygen producer)?</p>
<p>The relevant inequalities, it seems to me, are not of genetic or even memetic fitness but of power, as vague as that is.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Tyler</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/06/singularity-ine.html#comment-401880</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Tyler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 17:05:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/06/history-of-transition-inequality.html#comment-401880</guid>
		<description>On that page, Gould says, among other things:

&quot;total bacterial biomass (even at such minimal weight per cell) may exceed all the rest of life combined, even forest trees, once we include the subterranean populations as well&quot;

- &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_bacteria.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_bacteria.html&lt;/A&gt;

...but he offers no figures in support of this - and &lt;EM&gt;even&lt;/EM&gt; if there were any, it would not support the assertion under discussion - since that refers to &quot;unicellular organisms&quot; and &quot;orders of magnitude&quot;.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On that page, Gould says, among other things:</p>
<p>&#8220;total bacterial biomass (even at such minimal weight per cell) may exceed all the rest of life combined, even forest trees, once we include the subterranean populations as well&#8221;</p>
<p>- <a HREF="http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_bacteria.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_bacteria.html</a></p>
<p>&#8230;but he offers no figures in support of this &#8211; and <em>even</em> if there were any, it would not support the assertion under discussion &#8211; since that refers to &#8220;unicellular organisms&#8221; and &#8220;orders of magnitude&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Titus Brown</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/06/singularity-ine.html#comment-401879</link>
		<dc:creator>Titus Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 14:23:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/06/history-of-transition-inequality.html#comment-401879</guid>
		<description>Tim, Gould actually explicitly says that plant biomass is dominant; did you read the link or my comment??  From the perspective of diversity, however, bacteria (and maybe viruses) are clearly present in vast numbers.  I could probably find some pop sci books if you want that kind of reference, but I don&#039;t know any off the top of my head.  Metagenomics probably has the single best set of scientific references for the vast diversity of non-eukaryotes; here are some references, in increasing order of technical detail:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagenomics

Sogin et al., http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/103/32/12115

Venter&#039;s work, e.g.: http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/304/5667/66
; http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0001456

Note that in the Sargasso Sea work (Venter Science reference), approximately as many or more proteins were sampled from the Sargasso Sea as had previously been known from all previous bacterial work.

The Sogin work is particularly straightforward and surprising: by the standard (though arguable) definition of species in bacteria, there is a shocking amount of bacterial diversity present in the ocean.  We still don&#039;t have a good upper OR lower estimate on the number of bacterial species, but every time we look at a new microbial niche we find 10s or 100s of thousands of different species.

The real problem, of course, is that this is an active area of research, so I can&#039;t give you hard and fast numbers:  the field of microbial diversity is still figuring out the broad outline of what is out there and what it means.  Heck, &quot;diversity&quot; by any of the old definitions (16s RNA, for example) may be the wrong way to think about true diversity, because there&#039;s at least some evidence that many of these bacteria don&#039;t do radically new things.  (Many of them do, of course, but many of them don&#039;t :).

--titus

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim, Gould actually explicitly says that plant biomass is dominant; did you read the link or my comment??  From the perspective of diversity, however, bacteria (and maybe viruses) are clearly present in vast numbers.  I could probably find some pop sci books if you want that kind of reference, but I don&#8217;t know any off the top of my head.  Metagenomics probably has the single best set of scientific references for the vast diversity of non-eukaryotes; here are some references, in increasing order of technical detail:</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagenomics" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagenomics</a></p>
<p>Sogin et al., <a href="http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/103/32/12115" rel="nofollow">http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/103/32/12115</a></p>
<p>Venter&#8217;s work, e.g.: <a href="http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/304/5667/66" rel="nofollow">http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/304/5667/66</a><br />
; <a href="http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0001456" rel="nofollow">http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0001456</a></p>
<p>Note that in the Sargasso Sea work (Venter Science reference), approximately as many or more proteins were sampled from the Sargasso Sea as had previously been known from all previous bacterial work.</p>
<p>The Sogin work is particularly straightforward and surprising: by the standard (though arguable) definition of species in bacteria, there is a shocking amount of bacterial diversity present in the ocean.  We still don&#8217;t have a good upper OR lower estimate on the number of bacterial species, but every time we look at a new microbial niche we find 10s or 100s of thousands of different species.</p>
<p>The real problem, of course, is that this is an active area of research, so I can&#8217;t give you hard and fast numbers:  the field of microbial diversity is still figuring out the broad outline of what is out there and what it means.  Heck, &#8220;diversity&#8221; by any of the old definitions (16s RNA, for example) may be the wrong way to think about true diversity, because there&#8217;s at least some evidence that many of these bacteria don&#8217;t do radically new things.  (Many of them do, of course, but many of them don&#8217;t <img src='http://www.overcomingbias.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> .</p>
<p>&#8211;titus</p>
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		<title>By: Peter St. Onge</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/06/singularity-ine.html#comment-401878</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter St. Onge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 03:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/06/history-of-transition-inequality.html#comment-401878</guid>
		<description>Market processes may reduce this inequality even further - compared to the resources applied to invention, it seems far more resources are subsequently dedicated to &quot;democratization&quot; of demand.

To illustrate, if 1500 military export markets were well-developed, Zulu armies would certainly be cheaply kitted with firearms and stirrups by the time the British got round to visiting.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Market processes may reduce this inequality even further &#8211; compared to the resources applied to invention, it seems far more resources are subsequently dedicated to &#8220;democratization&#8221; of demand.</p>
<p>To illustrate, if 1500 military export markets were well-developed, Zulu armies would certainly be cheaply kitted with firearms and stirrups by the time the British got round to visiting.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Tyler</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/06/singularity-ine.html#comment-401877</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Tyler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 20:51:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/06/history-of-transition-inequality.html#comment-401877</guid>
		<description>Gould offers practically no support for the claim that unicellular organisms like bacteria and algae outmass other life forms on earth by orders of magnitude.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gould offers practically no support for the claim that unicellular organisms like bacteria and algae outmass other life forms on earth by orders of magnitude.</p>
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		<title>By: Titus Brown</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/06/singularity-ine.html#comment-401876</link>
		<dc:creator>Titus Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 15:59:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/06/history-of-transition-inequality.html#comment-401876</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the welcome, HA!

Tim, here&#039;s a discussion of the biomass issue:

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_bacteria.html

It seems pretty up-to-date.  It&#039;s tough to find good research-level discussions of this stuff because it&#039;s in introductory textbooks in microbiology now, but Gould comes through!

From the perspective of diversity, we *know* that there are many more species and varieties of bacteria than any other type, class, or group of organisms; that&#039;s been evident for well over a decade and has been confirmed most spectacularly by the recent metagenomic studies by (among many others) Venter and the JGI.  (The only possible exception is viruses, which occupy an uncomfortable niche in the biological hierarchy.)

Gould says that plant biomass outweights bacteria, which is no doubt correct.  Diversity-wise, however, bacteria are far more &quot;successful&quot; than animals or plants.

As for Robin&#039;s generalizations -- I think the emergence of multicellularity certainly counts as a dramatic singularity event!  (As does the CNS, probably, if he ever properly dates it :)

--titus


</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the welcome, HA!</p>
<p>Tim, here&#8217;s a discussion of the biomass issue:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_bacteria.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_bacteria.html</a></p>
<p>It seems pretty up-to-date.  It&#8217;s tough to find good research-level discussions of this stuff because it&#8217;s in introductory textbooks in microbiology now, but Gould comes through!</p>
<p>From the perspective of diversity, we *know* that there are many more species and varieties of bacteria than any other type, class, or group of organisms; that&#8217;s been evident for well over a decade and has been confirmed most spectacularly by the recent metagenomic studies by (among many others) Venter and the JGI.  (The only possible exception is viruses, which occupy an uncomfortable niche in the biological hierarchy.)</p>
<p>Gould says that plant biomass outweights bacteria, which is no doubt correct.  Diversity-wise, however, bacteria are far more &#8220;successful&#8221; than animals or plants.</p>
<p>As for Robin&#8217;s generalizations &#8212; I think the emergence of multicellularity certainly counts as a dramatic singularity event!  (As does the CNS, probably, if he ever properly dates it <img src='http://www.overcomingbias.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>&#8211;titus</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/06/singularity-ine.html#comment-401875</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:22:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/06/history-of-transition-inequality.html#comment-401875</guid>
		<description>Tim and Richard, my &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/06/singularity-out.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;post today&lt;/a&gt; may address your issues.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim and Richard, my <a href="http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/06/singularity-out.html" rel="nofollow">post today</a> may address your issues.</p>
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