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	<title>Comments on: Who Shall We Honor?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/05/who-should-we-h.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/05/who-should-we-h.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: Rob Spear</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/05/who-should-we-h.html#comment-403554</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Spear</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 04:17:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/05/who-shall-we-honor.html#comment-403554</guid>
		<description>Human societies run on a combination of violence (or the threat of violence), and bullshit (or mass belief in untrue things).  Without people willing to believe in the bullshit enough to back it up with violence, our current civilization would come to an end.  Hence the need to honor the warrior ethic.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Human societies run on a combination of violence (or the threat of violence), and bullshit (or mass belief in untrue things).  Without people willing to believe in the bullshit enough to back it up with violence, our current civilization would come to an end.  Hence the need to honor the warrior ethic.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam B</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/05/who-should-we-h.html#comment-403553</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 16:18:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/05/who-shall-we-honor.html#comment-403553</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s one possibility: they ran out of other excuses for a holiday.

In England quite a lot of people believe we should have another public holiday in the year, particularly as we have none between the last Monday of August and Christmas. One of the problems is that no-one has any idea what to name it after. The only two serious possibilities - apart from national patron saint days, which are in the wrong time of the year - are &quot;Britishness Day&quot; and &quot;Veterans&#039; Day&quot;. Despite being the frontrunners both are anathema to British culture, which views flag-waving and military-worship with suspicion. (You can come up with various reasons for this, from post-Empire angst to being brought up watching films of swastika-waving Nazis and being told &quot;That is bad, we fought so we didn&#039;t have to do that&quot;.)

The fact that we can&#039;t think of any universally appealing excuses for a public holiday suggests there aren&#039;t very many available, once you&#039;ve used up the religious festivals that don&#039;t offend non-believers, days of historical significance, etc. So perhaps the thought process is not &quot;We need to honour soldiers, let&#039;s have a holiday&quot; but &quot;We need a holiday, let&#039;s... uh... honour soldiers&quot;. The question &quot;so why soldiers&quot; remains but is less significant.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s one possibility: they ran out of other excuses for a holiday.</p>
<p>In England quite a lot of people believe we should have another public holiday in the year, particularly as we have none between the last Monday of August and Christmas. One of the problems is that no-one has any idea what to name it after. The only two serious possibilities &#8211; apart from national patron saint days, which are in the wrong time of the year &#8211; are &#8220;Britishness Day&#8221; and &#8220;Veterans&#8217; Day&#8221;. Despite being the frontrunners both are anathema to British culture, which views flag-waving and military-worship with suspicion. (You can come up with various reasons for this, from post-Empire angst to being brought up watching films of swastika-waving Nazis and being told &#8220;That is bad, we fought so we didn&#8217;t have to do that&#8221;.)</p>
<p>The fact that we can&#8217;t think of any universally appealing excuses for a public holiday suggests there aren&#8217;t very many available, once you&#8217;ve used up the religious festivals that don&#8217;t offend non-believers, days of historical significance, etc. So perhaps the thought process is not &#8220;We need to honour soldiers, let&#8217;s have a holiday&#8221; but &#8220;We need a holiday, let&#8217;s&#8230; uh&#8230; honour soldiers&#8221;. The question &#8220;so why soldiers&#8221; remains but is less significant.</p>
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		<title>By: Tony Ryan</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/05/who-should-we-h.html#comment-403552</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 10:09:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/05/who-shall-we-honor.html#comment-403552</guid>
		<description>Why is this so complicated? Think about this: Why is this so complicated?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why is this so complicated? Think about this: Why is this so complicated?</p>
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		<title>By: Shane Legg</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/05/who-should-we-h.html#comment-403551</link>
		<dc:creator>Shane Legg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 09:05:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/05/who-shall-we-honor.html#comment-403551</guid>
		<description>&quot;Far more people have been killed in car accidents than in war. Same for heart attacks.&quot;

I guess they miss the reciprocation aspect.  You don&#039;t owe them anything.  As for Eli&#039;s comment on why we don&#039;t honour fallen police officers with a day...

Ok, that&#039;s a more problematic one :-)

Perhaps because their collective deaths are not associated with a single event.  Thus the NYFD who died on 9/11 might not have a remembrance day, but they are closer to it than the many more fire fighters who have died in smaller events over the years.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Far more people have been killed in car accidents than in war. Same for heart attacks.&#8221;</p>
<p>I guess they miss the reciprocation aspect.  You don&#8217;t owe them anything.  As for Eli&#8217;s comment on why we don&#8217;t honour fallen police officers with a day&#8230;</p>
<p>Ok, that&#8217;s a more problematic one <img src='http://www.overcomingbias.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Perhaps because their collective deaths are not associated with a single event.  Thus the NYFD who died on 9/11 might not have a remembrance day, but they are closer to it than the many more fire fighters who have died in smaller events over the years.</p>
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		<title>By: Thanatos Savehn</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/05/who-should-we-h.html#comment-403550</link>
		<dc:creator>Thanatos Savehn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 08:10:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/05/who-shall-we-honor.html#comment-403550</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s a day for Warriors. However, feel free to propose a &quot;People Who Got Wasted Just Hanging Around&quot; Day.

We can honor lots of folks on such a holiday. Take one case I&#039;ve got right now. Poor guy was driving down the interstate when a wheel, no tire, from a compact came bouncing up and over the Jersey barrier and through his windshield. He never saw it. Sheared off the top of his head just above his nose. He didn&#039;t even drop his coffee.

It makes you think.

Maybe, somewhere in one of the Many Thanatoses, he got there a second before or a second later and so he made it home to his family; and they&#039;re not now trying to blame a car company for failing to warn the owners of its cars not to tie spare wheels up under it with nylon string 1/16th in. thick, and leave it there for 2 months. But then how would I make a living?

What a weird sad world.


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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a day for Warriors. However, feel free to propose a &#8220;People Who Got Wasted Just Hanging Around&#8221; Day.</p>
<p>We can honor lots of folks on such a holiday. Take one case I&#8217;ve got right now. Poor guy was driving down the interstate when a wheel, no tire, from a compact came bouncing up and over the Jersey barrier and through his windshield. He never saw it. Sheared off the top of his head just above his nose. He didn&#8217;t even drop his coffee.</p>
<p>It makes you think.</p>
<p>Maybe, somewhere in one of the Many Thanatoses, he got there a second before or a second later and so he made it home to his family; and they&#8217;re not now trying to blame a car company for failing to warn the owners of its cars not to tie spare wheels up under it with nylon string 1/16th in. thick, and leave it there for 2 months. But then how would I make a living?</p>
<p>What a weird sad world.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Hollerith</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/05/who-should-we-h.html#comment-403549</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Hollerith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 07:12:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/05/who-shall-we-honor.html#comment-403549</guid>
		<description>The powerful disincentive arises only after the person volunteers to become a soldier, so if you take away the incentive of Memorial Day, fewer will volunteer.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The powerful disincentive arises only after the person volunteers to become a soldier, so if you take away the incentive of Memorial Day, fewer will volunteer.</p>
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		<title>By: komponisto</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/05/who-should-we-h.html#comment-403548</link>
		<dc:creator>komponisto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 04:46:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/05/who-shall-we-honor.html#comment-403548</guid>
		<description>Sister Y, I would think just the opposite. Rewards and punishments are incentives; hence if there&#039;s already a powerful disincentive (punishment) for not performing an action, there is less of a need for an incentive (reward) for performing it; and conversely.

Furthermore, someone who volunteers to become a soldier presumably understands the terms of the arrangement, including the fact that they will be subject to harsh punishments for failing to obey orders, etc.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sister Y, I would think just the opposite. Rewards and punishments are incentives; hence if there&#8217;s already a powerful disincentive (punishment) for not performing an action, there is less of a need for an incentive (reward) for performing it; and conversely.</p>
<p>Furthermore, someone who volunteers to become a soldier presumably understands the terms of the arrangement, including the fact that they will be subject to harsh punishments for failing to obey orders, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: TGGP</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/05/who-should-we-h.html#comment-403547</link>
		<dc:creator>TGGP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 03:30:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/05/who-shall-we-honor.html#comment-403547</guid>
		<description>Someone complains &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/020748.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; that we honor dead police more than civilians, but he&#039;s an atypical person.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Someone complains <a href="http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/020748.html" rel="nofollow">here</a> that we honor dead police more than civilians, but he&#8217;s an atypical person.</p>
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		<title>By: Sister Y</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/05/who-should-we-h.html#comment-403546</link>
		<dc:creator>Sister Y</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 01:57:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/05/who-shall-we-honor.html#comment-403546</guid>
		<description>komponisto, perhaps military occupations are special in that even if someone volunteers to become a soldier, his actions are largely outside his free choice. A firefighter may refuse an assignment or quit his job; a soldier may not.

We are used to focusing on a person&#039;s freely chosen actions in according merit; however, there&#039;s a neat argument that it&#039;s unfair to accord the same honor/reward for an action that&#039;s freely chosen as opposed to one that&#039;s undertaken by mandatory duty. The person who had a duty to act, and did so, was subject to greater punishment (being court-martialed, jailed in a military prison for desertion, etc.) if he refused than someone who didn&#039;t have the duty to act. Shouldn&#039;t the greater punishment the duty subjected the person to also come with a proportionally greater reward/honor if the duty is performed? In other words, why should civilians in dangerous jobs have all the same honor and reward as military folks, when they are subject to much less severe punishments if they refuse to act?

(I came into contact with this argument in a paper on the duty to study Torah by David Benatar - &quot;Obligation, Motivation, and Reward: An Analysis of a Talmudic Principle,&quot; 2002 in Journal of Law and Religion.)
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>komponisto, perhaps military occupations are special in that even if someone volunteers to become a soldier, his actions are largely outside his free choice. A firefighter may refuse an assignment or quit his job; a soldier may not.</p>
<p>We are used to focusing on a person&#8217;s freely chosen actions in according merit; however, there&#8217;s a neat argument that it&#8217;s unfair to accord the same honor/reward for an action that&#8217;s freely chosen as opposed to one that&#8217;s undertaken by mandatory duty. The person who had a duty to act, and did so, was subject to greater punishment (being court-martialed, jailed in a military prison for desertion, etc.) if he refused than someone who didn&#8217;t have the duty to act. Shouldn&#8217;t the greater punishment the duty subjected the person to also come with a proportionally greater reward/honor if the duty is performed? In other words, why should civilians in dangerous jobs have all the same honor and reward as military folks, when they are subject to much less severe punishments if they refuse to act?</p>
<p>(I came into contact with this argument in a paper on the duty to study Torah by David Benatar &#8211; &#8220;Obligation, Motivation, and Reward: An Analysis of a Talmudic Principle,&#8221; 2002 in Journal of Law and Religion.)</p>
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		<title>By: komponisto</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/05/who-should-we-h.html#comment-403545</link>
		<dc:creator>komponisto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 00:26:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/05/who-shall-we-honor.html#comment-403545</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Why does the US have a national Memorial Day and Veterans Day for soldiers, but not police officers?&lt;/i&gt;

Policing is considered a job -- and not necessarily always a particularly noble one (cf. tax collectors). By contrast, the military is for some reason not considered a mere occupation. (Note, for example, the bad connotation of the word &quot;mercenary&quot;.)

That&#039;s why you get people arguing about the Iraq war as if we still had a draft. The Iraq war may be bad policy, but arguing against it on the grounds that it &quot;puts our soldiers in harm&#039;s way&quot; strikes me as inappropriate, since it is literally the job of &quot;our soldiers&quot; is to be in harm&#039;s way. Nowadays, with conscription a thing of the past, there is every reason to regard the military as closely analogous to other risky occupations like police or firefighting.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Why does the US have a national Memorial Day and Veterans Day for soldiers, but not police officers?</i></p>
<p>Policing is considered a job &#8212; and not necessarily always a particularly noble one (cf. tax collectors). By contrast, the military is for some reason not considered a mere occupation. (Note, for example, the bad connotation of the word &#8220;mercenary&#8221;.)</p>
<p>That&#8217;s why you get people arguing about the Iraq war as if we still had a draft. The Iraq war may be bad policy, but arguing against it on the grounds that it &#8220;puts our soldiers in harm&#8217;s way&#8221; strikes me as inappropriate, since it is literally the job of &#8220;our soldiers&#8221; is to be in harm&#8217;s way. Nowadays, with conscription a thing of the past, there is every reason to regard the military as closely analogous to other risky occupations like police or firefighting.</p>
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