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	<title>Comments on: Prediction Markets and Insider Trading</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/05/prediction-mark.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: scted</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/05/prediction-mark.html#comment-403590</link>
		<dc:creator>scted</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jun 2008 09:18:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/05/prediction-markets-and-insider-trading.html#comment-403590</guid>
		<description>Regarding insider trading, the following notion occurred to me the other day:  maybe it would be more fair to the &quot;little guy&quot; if we placed zero trading restrictions on all company employees.  That way, insider trading statistics might actually become a valuable indicator about the prospects for a particular company and its stock.

What happens today is that any impending news, good or bad, must be bottled up until some official news is released, typically a quarterly report.  The result in the market is always an underdamped reaction to the delta function.  The little guy, and even the big guy, has limited control of his destiny during this rude shock.

I submit that allowing for insider trading might lead to a properly damped response to the change in condition.  Maybe you make things fairer by taxing gains made by execs on their own stock at a higher rate, but you don&#039;t stop the information transfer.  You might argue against the implementing the proposal if you think that the underdamped nature of securities is somehow preferrable  ... I&#039;d bet that the CBOE would take that side.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding insider trading, the following notion occurred to me the other day:  maybe it would be more fair to the &#8220;little guy&#8221; if we placed zero trading restrictions on all company employees.  That way, insider trading statistics might actually become a valuable indicator about the prospects for a particular company and its stock.</p>
<p>What happens today is that any impending news, good or bad, must be bottled up until some official news is released, typically a quarterly report.  The result in the market is always an underdamped reaction to the delta function.  The little guy, and even the big guy, has limited control of his destiny during this rude shock.</p>
<p>I submit that allowing for insider trading might lead to a properly damped response to the change in condition.  Maybe you make things fairer by taxing gains made by execs on their own stock at a higher rate, but you don&#8217;t stop the information transfer.  You might argue against the implementing the proposal if you think that the underdamped nature of securities is somehow preferrable  &#8230; I&#8217;d bet that the CBOE would take that side.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Sullivan</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/05/prediction-mark.html#comment-403589</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Sullivan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 18:26:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/05/prediction-markets-and-insider-trading.html#comment-403589</guid>
		<description>&quot;Hear you, but sports possess entertainment value like music, drama and literature, not to mention cultivating fit bodies. Not sure why you would bin them as zero-sum, even given the technical winning and losing.&quot;

I&#039;m pretty sure Patri is not claiming that sports as a whole are zero-sum.  But the outcome on which we typically *bet*, is zero-sum.

The total value produced in the world by an NBA season in which Detroit wins the eastern conference championship is little different from that produced when Boston does.  In addition, the difference is completely intangible.   In this sense, a bet on this series is a bet that has little connection to the real world.

Now that I say that, though, I have to back off a bit.  There is surely a redistribution that happens depending on who is in the finals, or wins the championship, in that that team will sell more paraphernalia etc.  It&#039;s not a big a difference as 10 billion stolen in Iraq in that the people who get the money in either situation are investing it in roughly similar ways.  But it is a difference.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Hear you, but sports possess entertainment value like music, drama and literature, not to mention cultivating fit bodies. Not sure why you would bin them as zero-sum, even given the technical winning and losing.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m pretty sure Patri is not claiming that sports as a whole are zero-sum.  But the outcome on which we typically *bet*, is zero-sum.</p>
<p>The total value produced in the world by an NBA season in which Detroit wins the eastern conference championship is little different from that produced when Boston does.  In addition, the difference is completely intangible.   In this sense, a bet on this series is a bet that has little connection to the real world.</p>
<p>Now that I say that, though, I have to back off a bit.  There is surely a redistribution that happens depending on who is in the finals, or wins the championship, in that that team will sell more paraphernalia etc.  It&#8217;s not a big a difference as 10 billion stolen in Iraq in that the people who get the money in either situation are investing it in roughly similar ways.  But it is a difference.</p>
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		<title>By: ad</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/05/prediction-mark.html#comment-403588</link>
		<dc:creator>ad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 17:12:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/05/prediction-markets-and-insider-trading.html#comment-403588</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&lt;b&gt;Eventually&lt;/b&gt;, Ponzi schemes and companies like Enron get caught, because their accumulated physical assets don&#039;t match their claimed profits.&lt;/i&gt;

And bubbles eventually burst. That does not prevent them all from being formed in the first place.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i><b>Eventually</b>, Ponzi schemes and companies like Enron get caught, because their accumulated physical assets don&#8217;t match their claimed profits.</i></p>
<p>And bubbles eventually burst. That does not prevent them all from being formed in the first place.</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Knight</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/05/prediction-mark.html#comment-403587</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Knight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 03:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/05/prediction-markets-and-insider-trading.html#comment-403587</guid>
		<description>HA,
how does a Ponzi scheme transition to profitability?
Are there prominent examples you&#039;re thinking of?

I suppose a company can try to create reputation and legitimacy during a Ponzi scheme, but it&#039;s hard to imagine that Enron needed any more. I also suppose it&#039;s possible that Enron expected to pay its operating losses with occasional windfalls, like in CA, but that was just too small to be a serious business model.

Enron was a case of bad incentives. The salesmen cooked the books and exited. The behavior of the executives makes me doubt they knew they were playing a Ponzi scheme (until the prosecuted fraud) and ever had an exit plan.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>HA,<br />
how does a Ponzi scheme transition to profitability?<br />
Are there prominent examples you&#8217;re thinking of?</p>
<p>I suppose a company can try to create reputation and legitimacy during a Ponzi scheme, but it&#8217;s hard to imagine that Enron needed any more. I also suppose it&#8217;s possible that Enron expected to pay its operating losses with occasional windfalls, like in CA, but that was just too small to be a serious business model.</p>
<p>Enron was a case of bad incentives. The salesmen cooked the books and exited. The behavior of the executives makes me doubt they knew they were playing a Ponzi scheme (until the prosecuted fraud) and ever had an exit plan.</p>
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		<title>By: Hopefully Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/05/prediction-mark.html#comment-403586</link>
		<dc:creator>Hopefully Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 01:38:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/05/prediction-markets-and-insider-trading.html#comment-403586</guid>
		<description>&quot;Eventually, Ponzi schemes and companies like Enron get caught, because their accumulated physical assets don&#039;t match their claimed profits.&quot;

That just-so story simply isn&#039;t true, in my observation. Lots of &quot;Ponzi schemes&quot; transition to legitimate profitability and pull it off. A good argument could be made that Enron was attempting the same thing, and with better and luckier timing could have pulled it off, too. Beware of any &quot;eventually&quot; narrative, because it leaves room for intervention and transition before the purported inevitable outcome.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Eventually, Ponzi schemes and companies like Enron get caught, because their accumulated physical assets don&#8217;t match their claimed profits.&#8221;</p>
<p>That just-so story simply isn&#8217;t true, in my observation. Lots of &#8220;Ponzi schemes&#8221; transition to legitimate profitability and pull it off. A good argument could be made that Enron was attempting the same thing, and with better and luckier timing could have pulled it off, too. Beware of any &#8220;eventually&#8221; narrative, because it leaves room for intervention and transition before the purported inevitable outcome.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Ruspini</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/05/prediction-mark.html#comment-403585</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Ruspini</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 01:12:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/05/prediction-markets-and-insider-trading.html#comment-403585</guid>
		<description>I guess I&#039;m not challenging that sports markets might be relatively easy to fix given the relative lack of inherent interest in any one game. I never understood the utility of sports bettors though, who seem to lever instead of hedging the home team!
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess I&#8217;m not challenging that sports markets might be relatively easy to fix given the relative lack of inherent interest in any one game. I never understood the utility of sports bettors though, who seem to lever instead of hedging the home team!</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Ruspini</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/05/prediction-mark.html#comment-403584</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Ruspini</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 00:58:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/05/prediction-markets-and-insider-trading.html#comment-403584</guid>
		<description>Hear you, but sports possess entertainment value like music, drama and literature, not to mention cultivating fit bodies. Not sure why you would bin them as zero-sum, even given the technical winning and losing.

Also would differentiate insider trading from manipulation of outcome or prices.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hear you, but sports possess entertainment value like music, drama and literature, not to mention cultivating fit bodies. Not sure why you would bin them as zero-sum, even given the technical winning and losing.</p>
<p>Also would differentiate insider trading from manipulation of outcome or prices.</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Armstrong</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/05/prediction-mark.html#comment-403583</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Armstrong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 23:00:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/05/prediction-markets-and-insider-trading.html#comment-403583</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Sports only matters inasmuch as people care about it. What happens in business and politics affects people&#039;s lives directly, whether or not they care about it.&lt;/i&gt;

The fact that a not-insignificant proportion of our economies are consumed by sport affects my life directly, whether or not I care about it.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Sports only matters inasmuch as people care about it. What happens in business and politics affects people&#8217;s lives directly, whether or not they care about it.</i></p>
<p>The fact that a not-insignificant proportion of our economies are consumed by sport affects my life directly, whether or not I care about it.</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Armstrong</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/05/prediction-mark.html#comment-403582</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Armstrong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 22:58:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/05/prediction-markets-and-insider-trading.html#comment-403582</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The match fixing might never have been discovered had it not been detected by Betfair&lt;/i&gt;

Interesting. But if investors and betting organisations become sophisticated enough to detect potential fixing, might not cheats become better at falsely implying match fixing? After all, profits can be made from bets being voided, or from investors pulling out of the betting.

Will this result in a cycle of escalating cheaters and cheater detectors, or will the cheaters hit a wall? My feeling is that the returns for cheaters would diminish as the system gets more advanced; but that&#039;s just a gut feeling.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>The match fixing might never have been discovered had it not been detected by Betfair</i></p>
<p>Interesting. But if investors and betting organisations become sophisticated enough to detect potential fixing, might not cheats become better at falsely implying match fixing? After all, profits can be made from bets being voided, or from investors pulling out of the betting.</p>
<p>Will this result in a cycle of escalating cheaters and cheater detectors, or will the cheaters hit a wall? My feeling is that the returns for cheaters would diminish as the system gets more advanced; but that&#8217;s just a gut feeling.</p>
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		<title>By: Patri Friedman</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/05/prediction-mark.html#comment-403581</link>
		<dc:creator>Patri Friedman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 22:50:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/05/prediction-markets-and-insider-trading.html#comment-403581</guid>
		<description>Sports only matters inasmuch as people care about it.  What happens in business and politics affects people&#039;s lives directly, whether or not they care about it.  If the stock market is down today, that is a meaningful statement that the total wealth of human society is slightly less than we thought, which affects everyone&#039;s life to some degree.  If we discover that ten billion dollars in cash were &quot;lost&quot; on the way to Iraq, that has inherent meaning about the allocation of resources between thieves and Iraq reconstruction.  It affects the lives of those in Iraq whether or not they hear about it.

Sports are much more like entertainment.  Just as the music industry generates utility through consumption of music, the sports industry generates utility through fans consuming sporting events.  But there is a zero-sum nature to sports which is not present in music.  The existence of sports may create net positive utility, but is that true of who wins a particular game?  There will always be a winner and a loser, why does it matter which is which?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sports only matters inasmuch as people care about it.  What happens in business and politics affects people&#8217;s lives directly, whether or not they care about it.  If the stock market is down today, that is a meaningful statement that the total wealth of human society is slightly less than we thought, which affects everyone&#8217;s life to some degree.  If we discover that ten billion dollars in cash were &#8220;lost&#8221; on the way to Iraq, that has inherent meaning about the allocation of resources between thieves and Iraq reconstruction.  It affects the lives of those in Iraq whether or not they hear about it.</p>
<p>Sports are much more like entertainment.  Just as the music industry generates utility through consumption of music, the sports industry generates utility through fans consuming sporting events.  But there is a zero-sum nature to sports which is not present in music.  The existence of sports may create net positive utility, but is that true of who wins a particular game?  There will always be a winner and a loser, why does it matter which is which?</p>
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