<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Keeping Math Real</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/05/keeping-math-re.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/05/keeping-math-re.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 02:20:49 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.3</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: gandalf</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/05/keeping-math-re.html#comment-404663</link>
		<dc:creator>gandalf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 19:21:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/05/keeping-math-real.html#comment-404663</guid>
		<description>I totally understand and support what von Neumann (and later V. I. Arnold) said. I am surprised that this is not screaming obvious to everyone here.

Mathematics today has no resemblance to the real world, and never will have again. I sometimes feel there is almost a cartel at work, a massive clan of academics, whose sole purpose is to justify their existence by developing theory after more esoteric theory, none of which actually matters. They need to do this because people need their PhDs, academics need to keep the hundreds of millions of dollars of grants flowing, and they need to keep publishing to go from being assistant processors to associate professors to professors to emeritus.

It’s their livelihood, fellas. Do you really expect them to rock the boat? What if the grants stop, or if the public start questioning the value of keeping up these behemoths that are pure maths departments?

Just like the credit crunch and the financial services industry today, the higher mathematics community just another industry that is not interested in governing itself. it couldn&#039;t care less.

Sometimes I think it’s even worse than that. I almost think mathematicians actually enjoy living in their fairy-tale land, in their make-believe world that they have created because they can’t handle the real world.

Here are some sample topics of recent papers taken from a randomly chosen journal:
· &quot;A Banach space without a basis which has the bounded approximation property&quot;
· &quot;A characterization of all elliptic algebro-geometric solutions of the AKNS hierarchy&quot;
· &quot;A class of idempotent measures on compact nilmanifolds&quot;

If you think any of these have any resemblance with the world we live in (or people writing these have the slightest interest about the real world), you are living in the same cloud-cuckoo land.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I totally understand and support what von Neumann (and later V. I. Arnold) said. I am surprised that this is not screaming obvious to everyone here.</p>
<p>Mathematics today has no resemblance to the real world, and never will have again. I sometimes feel there is almost a cartel at work, a massive clan of academics, whose sole purpose is to justify their existence by developing theory after more esoteric theory, none of which actually matters. They need to do this because people need their PhDs, academics need to keep the hundreds of millions of dollars of grants flowing, and they need to keep publishing to go from being assistant processors to associate professors to professors to emeritus.</p>
<p>It’s their livelihood, fellas. Do you really expect them to rock the boat? What if the grants stop, or if the public start questioning the value of keeping up these behemoths that are pure maths departments?</p>
<p>Just like the credit crunch and the financial services industry today, the higher mathematics community just another industry that is not interested in governing itself. it couldn&#8217;t care less.</p>
<p>Sometimes I think it’s even worse than that. I almost think mathematicians actually enjoy living in their fairy-tale land, in their make-believe world that they have created because they can’t handle the real world.</p>
<p>Here are some sample topics of recent papers taken from a randomly chosen journal:<br />
· &#8220;A Banach space without a basis which has the bounded approximation property&#8221;<br />
· &#8220;A characterization of all elliptic algebro-geometric solutions of the AKNS hierarchy&#8221;<br />
· &#8220;A class of idempotent measures on compact nilmanifolds&#8221;</p>
<p>If you think any of these have any resemblance with the world we live in (or people writing these have the slightest interest about the real world), you are living in the same cloud-cuckoo land.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dihymo</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/05/keeping-math-re.html#comment-404662</link>
		<dc:creator>Dihymo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jun 2008 08:45:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/05/keeping-math-real.html#comment-404662</guid>
		<description>Unknown, it&#039;s really simple. The force is different, the acceleration is the same. The mass which you are measuring the acceleration of cancels out.

If I put a nickel (little mass) into a cup (big mass) and then I take the nickel out (cancel out little mass during the acceleration) what&#039;s left? The cup.

If I put a quarter (medium mass) and then take the quarter out (medium mass again) what&#039;s left? The cup.

In both cases it is the cup which determines the acceleration not the coin.

You are correct though that the smaller acceleration of the Earth toward different masses is different. But that is not what Aristotle said. He said it depends on the mass of the object not the mass of the Earth. Aristotle is the grandfather of the big mass faster acceleration theory. This is exactly the theory that people still cling to because they make the same mistake he did.

The only way you could get out of it is to say you meant the Earth.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unknown, it&#8217;s really simple. The force is different, the acceleration is the same. The mass which you are measuring the acceleration of cancels out.</p>
<p>If I put a nickel (little mass) into a cup (big mass) and then I take the nickel out (cancel out little mass during the acceleration) what&#8217;s left? The cup.</p>
<p>If I put a quarter (medium mass) and then take the quarter out (medium mass again) what&#8217;s left? The cup.</p>
<p>In both cases it is the cup which determines the acceleration not the coin.</p>
<p>You are correct though that the smaller acceleration of the Earth toward different masses is different. But that is not what Aristotle said. He said it depends on the mass of the object not the mass of the Earth. Aristotle is the grandfather of the big mass faster acceleration theory. This is exactly the theory that people still cling to because they make the same mistake he did.</p>
<p>The only way you could get out of it is to say you meant the Earth.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dihymo</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/05/keeping-math-re.html#comment-404661</link>
		<dc:creator>Dihymo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jun 2008 08:31:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/05/keeping-math-real.html#comment-404661</guid>
		<description>Mathematics being a generalized system of ideas tightly bound together does represent reality.

Mathematicians being human do not represent reality.

Mathematicians talk about math.

Hence we&#039;re playing telephone and calling it reality.

Danger, Will Robinson!
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mathematics being a generalized system of ideas tightly bound together does represent reality.</p>
<p>Mathematicians being human do not represent reality.</p>
<p>Mathematicians talk about math.</p>
<p>Hence we&#8217;re playing telephone and calling it reality.</p>
<p>Danger, Will Robinson!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Caledonian</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/05/keeping-math-re.html#comment-404660</link>
		<dc:creator>Caledonian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 19:50:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/05/keeping-math-real.html#comment-404660</guid>
		<description>Yes, Unknown, I&#039;m sure those quantum mechanical arguments &lt;i&gt;totally validate&lt;/i&gt; Aristotle&#039;s claims.

Next, will you demonstrate that the brain is actually a cooling apparatus and not the center of cognition, which is actually the heart?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Unknown, I&#8217;m sure those quantum mechanical arguments <i>totally validate</i> Aristotle&#8217;s claims.</p>
<p>Next, will you demonstrate that the brain is actually a cooling apparatus and not the center of cognition, which is actually the heart?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Unknown</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/05/keeping-math-re.html#comment-404659</link>
		<dc:creator>Unknown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 19:32:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/05/keeping-math-real.html#comment-404659</guid>
		<description>Caledonian, for reason #3, see http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0143-0807/8/2/006.


</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Caledonian, for reason #3, see <a href="http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0143-0807/8/2/006" rel="nofollow">http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0143-0807/8/2/006</a>.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Caledonian</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/05/keeping-math-re.html#comment-404658</link>
		<dc:creator>Caledonian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 19:17:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/05/keeping-math-real.html#comment-404658</guid>
		<description>1) actually concerns density and shape, not mass or weight.

2) is far too small an effect for Aristotle to have detected - on the scale available to him, his claim was incorrect.  Furthermore the claim is not that the more massive object falls faster, but that the Earth falls faster up to it.

So you&#039;re right in a trivial and limited sense, but completely wrong in the broader course of the argument.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1) actually concerns density and shape, not mass or weight.</p>
<p>2) is far too small an effect for Aristotle to have detected &#8211; on the scale available to him, his claim was incorrect.  Furthermore the claim is not that the more massive object falls faster, but that the Earth falls faster up to it.</p>
<p>So you&#8217;re right in a trivial and limited sense, but completely wrong in the broader course of the argument.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Unknown</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/05/keeping-math-re.html#comment-404657</link>
		<dc:creator>Unknown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 18:27:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/05/keeping-math-real.html#comment-404657</guid>
		<description>Caledonian... heavier objects do, in fact, fall faster:

1)due to differing air resistance to a heavy or light body (this is actually the reason explicitly mentioned by Aristotle).

2)even in a vacuum, due to the gravitational attraction of the falling body upon the planet.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Caledonian&#8230; heavier objects do, in fact, fall faster:</p>
<p>1)due to differing air resistance to a heavy or light body (this is actually the reason explicitly mentioned by Aristotle).</p>
<p>2)even in a vacuum, due to the gravitational attraction of the falling body upon the planet.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Barkley Rosser</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/05/keeping-math-re.html#comment-404656</link>
		<dc:creator>Barkley Rosser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 18:22:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/05/keeping-math-real.html#comment-404656</guid>
		<description>komponisto,

Did you think I was disagreeing with you?  The point was whether or not von Neumann&#039;s forecast about the future was correct or not.  I claim it mostly was, and citing the fact that Hardy&#039;s purely theoretical work came to be used practically does not disprove that when Hardy&#039;s work was done prior to von Neumann&#039;s prediction, although the dates of application are also relevant.

Of course, Hardy was certainly one of the most publicly ardent advocates ever of the idea of pure math being justified as its own end, pure math pour pure math, like l&#039;art pour l&#039;art.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>komponisto,</p>
<p>Did you think I was disagreeing with you?  The point was whether or not von Neumann&#8217;s forecast about the future was correct or not.  I claim it mostly was, and citing the fact that Hardy&#8217;s purely theoretical work came to be used practically does not disprove that when Hardy&#8217;s work was done prior to von Neumann&#8217;s prediction, although the dates of application are also relevant.</p>
<p>Of course, Hardy was certainly one of the most publicly ardent advocates ever of the idea of pure math being justified as its own end, pure math pour pure math, like l&#8217;art pour l&#8217;art.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Caledonian</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/05/keeping-math-re.html#comment-404655</link>
		<dc:creator>Caledonian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 17:52:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/05/keeping-math-real.html#comment-404655</guid>
		<description>We generate the reputation of a thinker by evaluating the quality of his work, not vice versa.

If we judged the quality of work by the reputation of the person producing it, we&#039;d still believe that heavier objects fall faster because Aristotle said so.

This attitude of reverence towards ancestral icons is incompatible with scientific inquiry and, more generally, rationality itself.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We generate the reputation of a thinker by evaluating the quality of his work, not vice versa.</p>
<p>If we judged the quality of work by the reputation of the person producing it, we&#8217;d still believe that heavier objects fall faster because Aristotle said so.</p>
<p>This attitude of reverence towards ancestral icons is incompatible with scientific inquiry and, more generally, rationality itself.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: komponisto</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/05/keeping-math-re.html#comment-404654</link>
		<dc:creator>komponisto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 16:58:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/05/keeping-math-real.html#comment-404654</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Hardy&#039;s work was done before von Neumann&#039;s statement, although certainly the full applications of it were not completed by then.&lt;/i&gt;

It doesn&#039;t matter when Hardy&#039;s work was done; the point is that if you posed the question to Hardy, &quot;Do you think mathematics derives its legitimacy from its connection to (physical) reality?&quot;, he would have answered in the negative.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Hardy&#8217;s work was done before von Neumann&#8217;s statement, although certainly the full applications of it were not completed by then.</i></p>
<p>It doesn&#8217;t matter when Hardy&#8217;s work was done; the point is that if you posed the question to Hardy, &#8220;Do you think mathematics derives its legitimacy from its connection to (physical) reality?&#8221;, he would have answered in the negative.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

<!-- Performance optimized by W3 Total Cache. Learn more: http://www.w3-edge.com/wordpress-plugins/

Page Caching using disk (enhanced)
Database Caching using disk
Object Caching 438/455 objects using disk
Content Delivery Network via Amazon Web Services: S3: overcomingbias-assets.s3.amazonaws.com

Served from: www.overcomingbias.com @ 2012-02-11 21:56:14 -->
