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	<title>Comments on: A Model Disagreement</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/04/a-model-disagre.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: Hopefully Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/04/a-model-disagre.html#comment-405140</link>
		<dc:creator>Hopefully Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 23:32:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/04/a-model-disagreement.html#comment-405140</guid>
		<description>Unknown, I agree that Eliezer probably wouldn&#039;t be the best person to do this with. Maybe not even Robin, although Robin would make a good overseer/ref of the conversation case study.

The ideal would be two people, comfortable with bayesian reasoning, who have a demonstrated track record of updating their positions in response to new information from 3rd parties.

I think Anders Sandberg clearly would be one good choice. I&#039;ll have to think more about the second. I would nominate TGGP as a smart person with a demonstrated capacity to update his beliefs as a result of new information from third parties, but I&#039;m unaware of his facility with the bayesian aspect.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unknown, I agree that Eliezer probably wouldn&#8217;t be the best person to do this with. Maybe not even Robin, although Robin would make a good overseer/ref of the conversation case study.</p>
<p>The ideal would be two people, comfortable with bayesian reasoning, who have a demonstrated track record of updating their positions in response to new information from 3rd parties.</p>
<p>I think Anders Sandberg clearly would be one good choice. I&#8217;ll have to think more about the second. I would nominate TGGP as a smart person with a demonstrated capacity to update his beliefs as a result of new information from third parties, but I&#8217;m unaware of his facility with the bayesian aspect.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/04/a-model-disagre.html#comment-405139</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 22:46:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/04/a-model-disagreement.html#comment-405139</guid>
		<description>Hal, you are assuming that the person who hears your message is acting rationally and reasonably in responding to the message.  Given this assumption, as you find, you can&#039;t really tell them much useful in this way.  But if he is not responding reasonably, you can accurately tell him that his estimate will be lower than yours.  And this is in fact what we find in lab experiments with humans, and in our ordinary experience with each other.  We can in fact anticipate how others&#039; future opinions will differ from our opinion now, even when we warn them of the direction of this difference.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hal, you are assuming that the person who hears your message is acting rationally and reasonably in responding to the message.  Given this assumption, as you find, you can&#8217;t really tell them much useful in this way.  But if he is not responding reasonably, you can accurately tell him that his estimate will be lower than yours.  And this is in fact what we find in lab experiments with humans, and in our ordinary experience with each other.  We can in fact anticipate how others&#8217; future opinions will differ from our opinion now, even when we warn them of the direction of this difference.</p>
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		<title>By: Hal Finney</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/04/a-model-disagre.html#comment-405138</link>
		<dc:creator>Hal Finney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 22:17:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/04/a-model-disagreement.html#comment-405138</guid>
		<description>Robin, yes, that was the result I was thinking of. I guess I interpreted it incorrectly. I&#039;ve always struggled with &lt;a href=&quot;http://hanson.gmu.edu/unpredict.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;that paper&lt;/a&gt;, actually. Here is an example. (Sorry about going off-topic!)

Let&#039;s suppose we throw a die such that only I can see the outcome. We are going to estimate the value that comes up. I know the value, but for you any of the 6 alternatives is equally likely, so your weighted estimate is 3.5. Now, suppose I tell you, &quot;My estimate of the die value is less than what I think yours will be after you hear this.&quot; (I think that is an accurate paraphrase of the paper&#039;s &quot;P=1&quot;.) What are you going to do? What is your new estimate?

You might think, my estimate was 3.5, he knows what it is and says that is lower than what mine will be, so it was probably a 1, 2, or 3, in which case my estimate would be 2, but he says it is lower than what I will think, so it would have had to have been a 1, but then my estimate is 1, and his can&#039;t be lower. You reach a contradiction. There is no estimate you can pick that makes my statement true, because whatever number you pick, I&#039;m saying that the actual die value is lower than that, so you would have to go lower.

Because of this contradiction, then, I guess the conclusion is that I shouldn&#039;t have said that, even if the die really was a 1. I&#039;m tempted to say that because of its self-contradictory nature, my statement gave you no information, so you would leave your estimate at 3.5, in which case my statement was actually true! But then we would have to take another turn on the merry go round and it would become contradictory again.

The paper seems to suggest that I can say, &quot;My estimate of the die value is less &lt;i&gt;or equal to&lt;/i&gt; than what I think yours will be after you hear this.&quot; (That would be &quot;N=0&quot; in the paper.) But I don&#039;t see how I can always say this. What is your estimate going to be? What if I rolled a 6? It doesn&#039;t seem like it works much better.

In the end I&#039;m not sure this result tells us much about the nature of disagreement, rather it seems to be more of a logical paradox similar to the &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unexpected_hanging_paradox&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Unexpected Hanging&lt;/a&gt;.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin, yes, that was the result I was thinking of. I guess I interpreted it incorrectly. I&#8217;ve always struggled with <a href="http://hanson.gmu.edu/unpredict.pdf" rel="nofollow">that paper</a>, actually. Here is an example. (Sorry about going off-topic!)</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s suppose we throw a die such that only I can see the outcome. We are going to estimate the value that comes up. I know the value, but for you any of the 6 alternatives is equally likely, so your weighted estimate is 3.5. Now, suppose I tell you, &#8220;My estimate of the die value is less than what I think yours will be after you hear this.&#8221; (I think that is an accurate paraphrase of the paper&#8217;s &#8220;P=1&#8243;.) What are you going to do? What is your new estimate?</p>
<p>You might think, my estimate was 3.5, he knows what it is and says that is lower than what mine will be, so it was probably a 1, 2, or 3, in which case my estimate would be 2, but he says it is lower than what I will think, so it would have had to have been a 1, but then my estimate is 1, and his can&#8217;t be lower. You reach a contradiction. There is no estimate you can pick that makes my statement true, because whatever number you pick, I&#8217;m saying that the actual die value is lower than that, so you would have to go lower.</p>
<p>Because of this contradiction, then, I guess the conclusion is that I shouldn&#8217;t have said that, even if the die really was a 1. I&#8217;m tempted to say that because of its self-contradictory nature, my statement gave you no information, so you would leave your estimate at 3.5, in which case my statement was actually true! But then we would have to take another turn on the merry go round and it would become contradictory again.</p>
<p>The paper seems to suggest that I can say, &#8220;My estimate of the die value is less <i>or equal to</i> than what I think yours will be after you hear this.&#8221; (That would be &#8220;N=0&#8243; in the paper.) But I don&#8217;t see how I can always say this. What is your estimate going to be? What if I rolled a 6? It doesn&#8217;t seem like it works much better.</p>
<p>In the end I&#8217;m not sure this result tells us much about the nature of disagreement, rather it seems to be more of a logical paradox similar to the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unexpected_hanging_paradox" rel="nofollow">Unexpected Hanging</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Unknown</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/04/a-model-disagre.html#comment-405137</link>
		<dc:creator>Unknown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 17:59:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/04/a-model-disagreement.html#comment-405137</guid>
		<description>Hal, I would be interested in seeing a disagreement case study with Robin and Eliezer as well. But it wouldn&#039;t be very interesting if they simply gave their estimate. For example, if Robin gave one estimate, and then Eliezer gave another, Robin might update his estimate by some amount. But Eliezer would not subsequently update his estimate, not even by 0.00001%. Now Robin already knows that Eliezer would not update his estimate, and consequently Eliezer&#039;s refusal to update his estimate would not result in Robin changing his estimate again, since his refusal would give no new information. So there would be at most one update, on Robin&#039;s part, and from then on there would be persistent disagreement.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hal, I would be interested in seeing a disagreement case study with Robin and Eliezer as well. But it wouldn&#8217;t be very interesting if they simply gave their estimate. For example, if Robin gave one estimate, and then Eliezer gave another, Robin might update his estimate by some amount. But Eliezer would not subsequently update his estimate, not even by 0.00001%. Now Robin already knows that Eliezer would not update his estimate, and consequently Eliezer&#8217;s refusal to update his estimate would not result in Robin changing his estimate again, since his refusal would give no new information. So there would be at most one update, on Robin&#8217;s part, and from then on there would be persistent disagreement.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/04/a-model-disagre.html#comment-405136</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:16:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/04/a-model-disagreement.html#comment-405136</guid>
		<description>Stirling, there is a tradeoff in modeling between realism and understandability.  Let me know when you work out a more realistic model.

Caledonian, it is usually extremely impractical to share &lt;i&gt;all&lt;/i&gt; your data.

J, the first link in the post above is to a previous post discussing that very research.

Hal, I&#039;m not sure what you have in mind about a complex path to convergence.  I prefer to focus on &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/01/we_cant_foresee.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this result&lt;/a&gt;, saying we can&#039;t foresee to disagree.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stirling, there is a tradeoff in modeling between realism and understandability.  Let me know when you work out a more realistic model.</p>
<p>Caledonian, it is usually extremely impractical to share <i>all</i> your data.</p>
<p>J, the first link in the post above is to a previous post discussing that very research.</p>
<p>Hal, I&#8217;m not sure what you have in mind about a complex path to convergence.  I prefer to focus on <a href="http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/01/we_cant_foresee.html" rel="nofollow">this result</a>, saying we can&#8217;t foresee to disagree.</p>
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		<title>By: Hal Finney</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/04/a-model-disagre.html#comment-405135</link>
		<dc:creator>Hal Finney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 23:37:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/04/a-model-disagreement.html#comment-405135</guid>
		<description>Hopefully Anonymous, Robin has occasionally posted &quot;disagreement case studies&quot; where he explores various aspects of disagreements he has had with various people. It would be interesting to see such a case study among contributors here. He and Eliezer would be good candidates for this, since both accept the Aumann results. Both have done work on AI, so perhaps they might find something to disagree on about that technology. For example, what is the probability of greater-than-human AI before the year 2030? Maybe they would have substantially different estimates about some such question.

Then we need to consider, what would be the most informative (or entertaining!?) format for the argument. Tradition would call for them to explain their reasons to each other, periodically indicate when they have changed their minds somewhat, either leading in the end to convergence or &quot;agreeing to disagree&quot;. The Aumann theorem implies that agreement should be reached even with the much more restrictive communication channel modeled here by Robin, where the two simply take turns reciting their estimates regarding the disputed issue. Robin has a paper showing that the path to convergence will often be rather more complicated in this scenario than one might have expected. It would be exciting to come up with a case study which demonstrates this effect.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hopefully Anonymous, Robin has occasionally posted &#8220;disagreement case studies&#8221; where he explores various aspects of disagreements he has had with various people. It would be interesting to see such a case study among contributors here. He and Eliezer would be good candidates for this, since both accept the Aumann results. Both have done work on AI, so perhaps they might find something to disagree on about that technology. For example, what is the probability of greater-than-human AI before the year 2030? Maybe they would have substantially different estimates about some such question.</p>
<p>Then we need to consider, what would be the most informative (or entertaining!?) format for the argument. Tradition would call for them to explain their reasons to each other, periodically indicate when they have changed their minds somewhat, either leading in the end to convergence or &#8220;agreeing to disagree&#8221;. The Aumann theorem implies that agreement should be reached even with the much more restrictive communication channel modeled here by Robin, where the two simply take turns reciting their estimates regarding the disputed issue. Robin has a paper showing that the path to convergence will often be rather more complicated in this scenario than one might have expected. It would be exciting to come up with a case study which demonstrates this effect.</p>
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		<title>By: J.</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/04/a-model-disagre.html#comment-405134</link>
		<dc:creator>J.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 21:47:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/04/a-model-disagreement.html#comment-405134</guid>
		<description>What do you think of the argument in this paper?  http://www.jstor.org/pss/2214612

(In case the link doesn&#039;t work, look for &quot;When Rational Disagreement is Impossible&quot; by Keith Lehrer, in Nous (1976)).
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What do you think of the argument in this paper?  <a href="http://www.jstor.org/pss/2214612" rel="nofollow">http://www.jstor.org/pss/2214612</a></p>
<p>(In case the link doesn&#8217;t work, look for &#8220;When Rational Disagreement is Impossible&#8221; by Keith Lehrer, in Nous (1976)).</p>
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		<title>By: Hopefully Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/04/a-model-disagre.html#comment-405133</link>
		<dc:creator>Hopefully Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 20:24:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/04/a-model-disagreement.html#comment-405133</guid>
		<description>It would be good to see a model discussion done along these lines. Robin, maybe you and another contributor can attempt to discuss something you disagree about, and attempt to do so in a bayesian way? We can analyze it in real time and/or afterwards.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would be good to see a model discussion done along these lines. Robin, maybe you and another contributor can attempt to discuss something you disagree about, and attempt to do so in a bayesian way? We can analyze it in real time and/or afterwards.</p>
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		<title>By: Caledonian</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/04/a-model-disagre.html#comment-405132</link>
		<dc:creator>Caledonian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 19:13:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/04/a-model-disagreement.html#comment-405132</guid>
		<description>Wouldn&#039;t the two Bayesians simply exchange all their data, including their priors and their reasons for holding those priors?

Given that, they should agree every time.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wouldn&#8217;t the two Bayesians simply exchange all their data, including their priors and their reasons for holding those priors?</p>
<p>Given that, they should agree every time.</p>
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		<title>By: Stirling Westrup</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/04/a-model-disagre.html#comment-405131</link>
		<dc:creator>Stirling Westrup</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 18:56:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/04/a-model-disagreement.html#comment-405131</guid>
		<description>Is it just me, or does this analysis make a lot of assumptions that don&#039;t seem to ever pan out in reality. For instance:

1) I&#039;ve only ever met one Bayesian yet, and we didn&#039;t end up disagreeing on anything...
2) The assumption that all of the Xi are independently and normally distributed with zero mean and a known variance Vi, seems unlikely. When attempting to gather  evidence, one takes all possible observations accessible to one, and they often, I would think, have internal correlations.
3) Every time I&#039;ve ever had a serious discussion where I&#039;ve tried to get to the root of a disagreement with someone logical (even if not Bayesian), we&#039;ve traced it to a set of different priors. In practice, I&#039;ve found, it can be extremely difficult to figure out the set of priors we agree on, and which we differ on, and how they interrelate (because real people don&#039;t have independent priors either).

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is it just me, or does this analysis make a lot of assumptions that don&#8217;t seem to ever pan out in reality. For instance:</p>
<p>1) I&#8217;ve only ever met one Bayesian yet, and we didn&#8217;t end up disagreeing on anything&#8230;<br />
2) The assumption that all of the Xi are independently and normally distributed with zero mean and a known variance Vi, seems unlikely. When attempting to gather  evidence, one takes all possible observations accessible to one, and they often, I would think, have internal correlations.<br />
3) Every time I&#8217;ve ever had a serious discussion where I&#8217;ve tried to get to the root of a disagreement with someone logical (even if not Bayesian), we&#8217;ve traced it to a set of different priors. In practice, I&#8217;ve found, it can be extremely difficult to figure out the set of priors we agree on, and which we differ on, and how they interrelate (because real people don&#8217;t have independent priors either).</p>
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