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	<title>Comments on: Showing That You Care</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/03/showing-that-yo.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: Overcoming Bias : This is the Dream Time</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/03/showing-that-yo.html#comment-433717</link>
		<dc:creator>Overcoming Bias : This is the Dream Time</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 02:48:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/03/showing-that-you-care.html#comment-433717</guid>
		<description>[...] reasons.  For example, we think we pay for docs to help our loved ones get well, rather than to show that we care.  We think we do politics because we want to help our nation, rather than to signal our character [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] reasons.  For example, we think we pay for docs to help our loved ones get well, rather than to show that we care.  We think we do politics because we want to help our nation, rather than to signal our character [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jess Austin</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/03/showing-that-yo.html#comment-430192</link>
		<dc:creator>Jess Austin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 20:51:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/03/showing-that-you-care.html#comment-430192</guid>
		<description>Maybe the hypothesis would get a bit more traction if it focused just on current observable conditions, and left off the half-baked etiology?  The evopsych just-so stories were never scientific, but in these modern times (the last 20 years?) they&#039;re not fashionable either.

Are you saying that signaling via healthcare is an instinct?  Most ethologists would contend that Homo sapiens has essentially no instincts that operate after infancy.  Are you proposing some sort of innate mental facility for tracking healthcare-related altruism?  That&#039;s bizarre too.

Anyway, if you&#039;ll forgive me for momentarily donning my evopsych cap, aren&#039;t the sick and injured the least likely to repay one&#039;s efforts on their behalf, in a Paleolithic setting anyway?  In my own amateur observation of semi-feral cats, sick and injured individuals seem to receive increased abuse from their fellows.  I could imagine some vague evolutionary mechanism for that, but I&#039;ll settle for just wondering why primates would be any different.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe the hypothesis would get a bit more traction if it focused just on current observable conditions, and left off the half-baked etiology?  The evopsych just-so stories were never scientific, but in these modern times (the last 20 years?) they&#8217;re not fashionable either.</p>
<p>Are you saying that signaling via healthcare is an instinct?  Most ethologists would contend that Homo sapiens has essentially no instincts that operate after infancy.  Are you proposing some sort of innate mental facility for tracking healthcare-related altruism?  That&#8217;s bizarre too.</p>
<p>Anyway, if you&#8217;ll forgive me for momentarily donning my evopsych cap, aren&#8217;t the sick and injured the least likely to repay one&#8217;s efforts on their behalf, in a Paleolithic setting anyway?  In my own amateur observation of semi-feral cats, sick and injured individuals seem to receive increased abuse from their fellows.  I could imagine some vague evolutionary mechanism for that, but I&#8217;ll settle for just wondering why primates would be any different.</p>
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		<title>By: Vet Spending</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/03/showing-that-yo.html#comment-430188</link>
		<dc:creator>Vet Spending</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 16:28:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/03/showing-that-you-care.html#comment-430188</guid>
		<description>[...] top-ranked vet school. I&#8217;m pretty sure we&#8217;re not economizing. And I&#8217;m pretty sure Robin Hanson&#8217;s on the right track. But it is possible to call around and get accurate quotes on the cost of neutering your dog. I [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] top-ranked vet school. I&#8217;m pretty sure we&#8217;re not economizing. And I&#8217;m pretty sure Robin Hanson&#8217;s on the right track. But it is possible to call around and get accurate quotes on the cost of neutering your dog. I [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Craig T. Nelson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/03/showing-that-yo.html#comment-406593</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig T. Nelson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:53:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/03/showing-that-you-care.html#comment-406593</guid>
		<description>martin larsen said:
&lt;i&gt;The idea of a group mind is to be found in many traditions and can be verified on a personal level. This naturally explains things like empathy, why birds organze so elegantly while flying, telepathy etc.&lt;/i&gt;

How might I personally verify telepathy?  I want my nobel prize!

Once I have this verification, I also intend to embarrass all those snotty AI researchers who think they can &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.red3d.com/cwr/boids/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;explain bird flocking&lt;/a&gt; without recourse to psychic powers and group minds.


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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>martin larsen said:<br />
<i>The idea of a group mind is to be found in many traditions and can be verified on a personal level. This naturally explains things like empathy, why birds organze so elegantly while flying, telepathy etc.</i></p>
<p>How might I personally verify telepathy?  I want my nobel prize!</p>
<p>Once I have this verification, I also intend to embarrass all those snotty AI researchers who think they can <a href="http://www.red3d.com/cwr/boids/" rel="nofollow">explain bird flocking</a> without recourse to psychic powers and group minds.</p>
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		<title>By: Biomed Tim</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/03/showing-that-yo.html#comment-406592</link>
		<dc:creator>Biomed Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Mar 2008 16:09:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/03/showing-that-you-care.html#comment-406592</guid>
		<description>Why do people think that grand theorizing should be reserved for stars?  Do they think that stars are better at grand theorizing than non-stars?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why do people think that grand theorizing should be reserved for stars?  Do they think that stars are better at grand theorizing than non-stars?</p>
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		<title>By: eric falkenstein</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/03/showing-that-yo.html#comment-406591</link>
		<dc:creator>eric falkenstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Mar 2008 04:55:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/03/showing-that-you-care.html#comment-406591</guid>
		<description>I too am working on a paper based on a utility function that cares about other people.  I have found that the general dislike of my nontraditional approach has criticisms that are inconsistent, and probably reflect the fact that the initial reaction was negative, and they grabbed a standard criticism.  For example, one reviewer said, you need a clean empirical test, another said, you need to generate auxiliary predictions to the main one you address.  In both cases, I had, but that was mentioned after page 3, to which the reviewer probably did not get.  One esteemed editor said merely that my result was not of general interest.  I was asserting risk was not related to return in equilibrium, a rather broad assertion if true.  I mentioned this meekly in a reply, and the editor corrected himself and gave me a different irrelevant objection, basically admitting his first objection was BS, but it didn&#039;t matter because my paper didn&#039;t pass the gut feel test.  One reviewer mentioned my framework was too simplistic, even though it was identical to the framework it was criticizing but with one change in the assumption (the utility function).  Thus, I would not take the articulated concerns at face value, because I think people feel that results they perceive as wrong or irrelevant will disappear soon enough, and it does no good to take them seriously.  And surely, if they are right in their gut feel, they are correct.

But in your case, let me be harsh.  If you are hypothesizing that interest in other&#039;s health is because it helps us build coalitions, which we assume are valuable, does the implication that people will then subsidize others health care anything but obvious?  Further, if health care policy is decided at a national level, and voting is done in private, how does this relate to the tribal situation you have described?  Its not obvious that a large group like nationalized health care advocates, are a status group like my buddies on the savanna.  That group seems too big to be a status group, like aligning with Democrats or Republicans, as opposed to joining the KKK or Black Panthers (both small enough to have monitoring, and an us-versus-them mentality).

Now it is true that some models, like DeLong, Shleifer, Summers and Waldeman&#039;s paper on short-lived speculators (1990), is like yours, in that the model does what the intro says: if you have capital constraints, trend-following noise traders may make it rational to follow trends.  They then model this.  But that model was never extended by anyone else because it merely did in algebra what everyone expected who read the first two pages.  It is often referenced,  but only, in my opinion, because it plays into a large thread (efficient vs. inefficient markets).


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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I too am working on a paper based on a utility function that cares about other people.  I have found that the general dislike of my nontraditional approach has criticisms that are inconsistent, and probably reflect the fact that the initial reaction was negative, and they grabbed a standard criticism.  For example, one reviewer said, you need a clean empirical test, another said, you need to generate auxiliary predictions to the main one you address.  In both cases, I had, but that was mentioned after page 3, to which the reviewer probably did not get.  One esteemed editor said merely that my result was not of general interest.  I was asserting risk was not related to return in equilibrium, a rather broad assertion if true.  I mentioned this meekly in a reply, and the editor corrected himself and gave me a different irrelevant objection, basically admitting his first objection was BS, but it didn&#8217;t matter because my paper didn&#8217;t pass the gut feel test.  One reviewer mentioned my framework was too simplistic, even though it was identical to the framework it was criticizing but with one change in the assumption (the utility function).  Thus, I would not take the articulated concerns at face value, because I think people feel that results they perceive as wrong or irrelevant will disappear soon enough, and it does no good to take them seriously.  And surely, if they are right in their gut feel, they are correct.</p>
<p>But in your case, let me be harsh.  If you are hypothesizing that interest in other&#8217;s health is because it helps us build coalitions, which we assume are valuable, does the implication that people will then subsidize others health care anything but obvious?  Further, if health care policy is decided at a national level, and voting is done in private, how does this relate to the tribal situation you have described?  Its not obvious that a large group like nationalized health care advocates, are a status group like my buddies on the savanna.  That group seems too big to be a status group, like aligning with Democrats or Republicans, as opposed to joining the KKK or Black Panthers (both small enough to have monitoring, and an us-versus-them mentality).</p>
<p>Now it is true that some models, like DeLong, Shleifer, Summers and Waldeman&#8217;s paper on short-lived speculators (1990), is like yours, in that the model does what the intro says: if you have capital constraints, trend-following noise traders may make it rational to follow trends.  They then model this.  But that model was never extended by anyone else because it merely did in algebra what everyone expected who read the first two pages.  It is often referenced,  but only, in my opinion, because it plays into a large thread (efficient vs. inefficient markets).</p>
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		<title>By: martin larsen</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/03/showing-that-yo.html#comment-406590</link>
		<dc:creator>martin larsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Mar 2008 11:01:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/03/showing-that-you-care.html#comment-406590</guid>
		<description>This theory unfortunatley suffers from the same problems as other theories trying to prove aspects of the emotional nature of man in terms of evolutionary psychology: 1) it is and remains unproven speculation, 2) It reveals a lack of insight into the emotional nature of man.

The attemt to explain these things by inventing a logical flat causative sequence of events is a function of the scientist only being able to use his intellectual thinking side, while being like most other contemporary people, out of touch with his feeling nature.

One basic and wrong assumption of evolutionary thinking is this idea of egoism and separateness. What is pertinent to remember is that while every living entity is an individual, it is also a part of the whole of its species or group in a much more concrete way than presumed. This connection is through the feeling/emotional nature (that is unfortunatly, as i said undeveloped in contemporary man, and perhaps even more in scientistically minded people who&#039;s intellectual, logical side is dominating, making it paradoxically even harder for these people to understand this). The idea of a group mind is to be found in many traditions and can be verified on a personal level. This naturally explains things like empathy, why birds organze so elegantly while flying, telepathy etc. This may be counterintuitive from the point of view of how we sense the world, but isn&#039;t it a while now since physicists discovered that our senses aren&#039;t telling the truth about reality?



</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This theory unfortunatley suffers from the same problems as other theories trying to prove aspects of the emotional nature of man in terms of evolutionary psychology: 1) it is and remains unproven speculation, 2) It reveals a lack of insight into the emotional nature of man.</p>
<p>The attemt to explain these things by inventing a logical flat causative sequence of events is a function of the scientist only being able to use his intellectual thinking side, while being like most other contemporary people, out of touch with his feeling nature.</p>
<p>One basic and wrong assumption of evolutionary thinking is this idea of egoism and separateness. What is pertinent to remember is that while every living entity is an individual, it is also a part of the whole of its species or group in a much more concrete way than presumed. This connection is through the feeling/emotional nature (that is unfortunatly, as i said undeveloped in contemporary man, and perhaps even more in scientistically minded people who&#8217;s intellectual, logical side is dominating, making it paradoxically even harder for these people to understand this). The idea of a group mind is to be found in many traditions and can be verified on a personal level. This naturally explains things like empathy, why birds organze so elegantly while flying, telepathy etc. This may be counterintuitive from the point of view of how we sense the world, but isn&#8217;t it a while now since physicists discovered that our senses aren&#8217;t telling the truth about reality?</p>
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		<title>By: Barkley Rosser</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/03/showing-that-yo.html#comment-406589</link>
		<dc:creator>Barkley Rosser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 20:53:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/03/showing-that-you-care.html#comment-406589</guid>
		<description>I will not ask where, but how many journals turned you down before you finally scored?
Congratulations in any case.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will not ask where, but how many journals turned you down before you finally scored?<br />
Congratulations in any case.</p>
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		<title>By: Silas</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/03/showing-that-yo.html#comment-406588</link>
		<dc:creator>Silas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 19:25:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/03/showing-that-you-care.html#comment-406588</guid>
		<description>Shouldn&#039;t there be more semi-colons and other punctuation in the second paragraph?  I found it hard to parse.  Here&#039;s what I would have done:

&lt;blockquote&gt;The puzzles I consider include a willingness to provide more medical than other assistance to associates and a desire to be seen as providing it; support for nation-, firm-, or family-provided medical care; placebo benefits of medicine; ...&lt;/blockquote&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shouldn&#8217;t there be more semi-colons and other punctuation in the second paragraph?  I found it hard to parse.  Here&#8217;s what I would have done:</p>
<blockquote><p>The puzzles I consider include a willingness to provide more medical than other assistance to associates and a desire to be seen as providing it; support for nation-, firm-, or family-provided medical care; placebo benefits of medicine; &#8230;</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: EconLog</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/03/showing-that-yo.html#comment-406594</link>
		<dc:creator>EconLog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 17:59:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/03/showing-that-you-care.html#comment-406594</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Publishing the Unpublishable Paper&lt;/strong&gt;

One of Robin Hanson&#039;s greatest unpublishable papers has finally been published. &quot;Showing That You Care: The Evolution of Health Altruism&quot;...
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Publishing the Unpublishable Paper</strong></p>
<p>One of Robin Hanson&#8217;s greatest unpublishable papers has finally been published. &#8220;Showing That You Care: The Evolution of Health Altruism&#8221;&#8230;</p>
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