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	<title>Comments on: Religious Cohesion</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/03/religious-cohes.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: itchy</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/03/religious-cohes.html#comment-406619</link>
		<dc:creator>itchy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Mar 2008 01:30:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/03/religious-cohesion.html#comment-406619</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;b&gt;&quot;Dr Sosis found that communes whose ideology was secular were up to four times as likely as religious ones to dissolve in any given year&quot;&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Your definition of &quot;social cohesion&quot; seems to be potentially loaded. To me, social cohesion is generally a good thing. It means cooperation, perhaps goodwill.

But the study isn&#039;t measuring cooperation, it&#039;s measuring duration, so it&#039;s neutral toward whether a commune&#039;s continued existence is better or worse for its members.

Using this measure, there was a whole lot of &quot;social cohesion&quot; in Alcatraz or the Tower of London or a Siberian prison camp.

One of the central strategies of a &quot;successful&quot; religious group is to make its members fearful of leaving (or of even considering leaving). This makes for a group that might endure, but I wouldn&#039;t call it cohesive, and it&#039;s certainly not something for which skeptics should strive.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p><b>&#8220;Dr Sosis found that communes whose ideology was secular were up to four times as likely as religious ones to dissolve in any given year&#8221;</b></p></blockquote>
<p>Your definition of &#8220;social cohesion&#8221; seems to be potentially loaded. To me, social cohesion is generally a good thing. It means cooperation, perhaps goodwill.</p>
<p>But the study isn&#8217;t measuring cooperation, it&#8217;s measuring duration, so it&#8217;s neutral toward whether a commune&#8217;s continued existence is better or worse for its members.</p>
<p>Using this measure, there was a whole lot of &#8220;social cohesion&#8221; in Alcatraz or the Tower of London or a Siberian prison camp.</p>
<p>One of the central strategies of a &#8220;successful&#8221; religious group is to make its members fearful of leaving (or of even considering leaving). This makes for a group that might endure, but I wouldn&#8217;t call it cohesive, and it&#8217;s certainly not something for which skeptics should strive.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Ierymenko</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/03/religious-cohes.html#comment-406618</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Ierymenko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Mar 2008 02:27:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/03/religious-cohesion.html#comment-406618</guid>
		<description>Perhaps &quot;supernatural&quot; beliefs are a space/energy saving mental placeholder for awareness of the higher-order requirements of social complexity.

In other words: while the human mind is capable of comprehending the true origin and necessity of moral behavior, doing so requires high-level and relatively deep philosophical thought. Perhaps supernatural beliefs are a sort of mental shorthand for that; a kind of energy saving or data compression adaptation.

If there is a genetic basis to religiosity or supernatural belief, it could be an example of the Baldwin effect:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_effect

Perhaps some early humans learned to cooperate, and that learning was then &quot;genetically encoded&quot; by evolution into a neurological shorthand for cooperative morality that we call God.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps &#8220;supernatural&#8221; beliefs are a space/energy saving mental placeholder for awareness of the higher-order requirements of social complexity.</p>
<p>In other words: while the human mind is capable of comprehending the true origin and necessity of moral behavior, doing so requires high-level and relatively deep philosophical thought. Perhaps supernatural beliefs are a sort of mental shorthand for that; a kind of energy saving or data compression adaptation.</p>
<p>If there is a genetic basis to religiosity or supernatural belief, it could be an example of the Baldwin effect:</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_effect" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldwin_effect</a></p>
<p>Perhaps some early humans learned to cooperate, and that learning was then &#8220;genetically encoded&#8221; by evolution into a neurological shorthand for cooperative morality that we call God.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/03/religious-cohes.html#comment-406617</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 16:29:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/03/religious-cohesion.html#comment-406617</guid>
		<description>Robin writes:
Many have suggested over the years that supernatural skeptics should create religious-like rituals to bind themselves together.  Apparently this strategy just does not work...

Not sure that is accurate.  The article states &quot;Ritual constraints are not by themselves enough to sustain co-operation in a community - what is needed in addition is a belief that those constraints are sanctified&quot;.  If the secular groups realize that the ritual constraint is needed because belief in it leads to social cohesion, then it could be effective.

Instead of ritual to please a god, have ritual to strengthen social groups.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin writes:<br />
Many have suggested over the years that supernatural skeptics should create religious-like rituals to bind themselves together.  Apparently this strategy just does not work&#8230;</p>
<p>Not sure that is accurate.  The article states &#8220;Ritual constraints are not by themselves enough to sustain co-operation in a community &#8211; what is needed in addition is a belief that those constraints are sanctified&#8221;.  If the secular groups realize that the ritual constraint is needed because belief in it leads to social cohesion, then it could be effective.</p>
<p>Instead of ritual to please a god, have ritual to strengthen social groups.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael G.R.</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/03/religious-cohes.html#comment-406616</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael G.R.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 03:38:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/03/religious-cohesion.html#comment-406616</guid>
		<description>&quot;I wonder: could ubiquitous surveillance also build social cohesion? &quot;

Maybe, but at what price?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I wonder: could ubiquitous surveillance also build social cohesion? &#8221;</p>
<p>Maybe, but at what price?</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Tarleton</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/03/religious-cohes.html#comment-406615</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Tarleton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2008 23:56:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/03/religious-cohesion.html#comment-406615</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;There seems to be a qualitative and fundamental psychological difference in how we perceive the two systems&lt;/i&gt; conflicts a bit with &lt;i&gt;one might generally expect better behavior under surveillance&lt;/i&gt;.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>There seems to be a qualitative and fundamental psychological difference in how we perceive the two systems</i> conflicts a bit with <i>one might generally expect better behavior under surveillance</i>.</p>
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		<title>By: Hal Finney</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/03/religious-cohes.html#comment-406614</link>
		<dc:creator>Hal Finney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2008 22:54:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/03/religious-cohesion.html#comment-406614</guid>
		<description>As far as the issue of surveillance, as the article said people who believe a ghost might be watching them were more honest. There was also a result, I think in Freakonomics, where just posting a picture of eyes above an honor-system treat jar made people less likely to cheat. So one might generally expect better behavior under surveillance, although I have heard claims that for example the widespread introduction of public cameras in English cities has not helped much with crime.

People generally don&#039;t like surveillance, but nobody complains about God watching them. There seems to be a qualitative and fundamental psychological difference in how we perceive the two systems.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As far as the issue of surveillance, as the article said people who believe a ghost might be watching them were more honest. There was also a result, I think in Freakonomics, where just posting a picture of eyes above an honor-system treat jar made people less likely to cheat. So one might generally expect better behavior under surveillance, although I have heard claims that for example the widespread introduction of public cameras in English cities has not helped much with crime.</p>
<p>People generally don&#8217;t like surveillance, but nobody complains about God watching them. There seems to be a qualitative and fundamental psychological difference in how we perceive the two systems.</p>
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		<title>By: Hal Finney</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/03/religious-cohes.html#comment-406613</link>
		<dc:creator>Hal Finney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2008 22:48:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/03/religious-cohesion.html#comment-406613</guid>
		<description>The linked article is about a project called &quot;Explaining Religion&quot; which aims to do just that. It is interesting that the article at the end touched on the taboo possibility that this perplexing belief system is maintained via supernatural means.

It does seem that they are focusing on group explanations, which as the article notes is odd because group selection is generally disparaged as a significant mechanism in evolutionary biology. Now you don&#039;t want to throw out the baby with the bathwater, maybe some group selection mechanisms are important, but still for a phenomenon as widespread and universal as religion, one would hope for a stronger foundation than group selection.

Robin has this theory that people are altruistic with respect to health issues because it indirectly and somewhat subtly redounds to the benefit of the person showing concern, via alliance effects. Health altruism is pretty strong and widespread, perhaps not as much so as religion but close. They do mention near the end a possible explanation for religion that has something of the same flavor.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The linked article is about a project called &#8220;Explaining Religion&#8221; which aims to do just that. It is interesting that the article at the end touched on the taboo possibility that this perplexing belief system is maintained via supernatural means.</p>
<p>It does seem that they are focusing on group explanations, which as the article notes is odd because group selection is generally disparaged as a significant mechanism in evolutionary biology. Now you don&#8217;t want to throw out the baby with the bathwater, maybe some group selection mechanisms are important, but still for a phenomenon as widespread and universal as religion, one would hope for a stronger foundation than group selection.</p>
<p>Robin has this theory that people are altruistic with respect to health issues because it indirectly and somewhat subtly redounds to the benefit of the person showing concern, via alliance effects. Health altruism is pretty strong and widespread, perhaps not as much so as religion but close. They do mention near the end a possible explanation for religion that has something of the same flavor.</p>
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		<title>By: TGGP</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/03/religious-cohes.html#comment-406612</link>
		<dc:creator>TGGP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2008 21:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/03/religious-cohesion.html#comment-406612</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Taoists have religious-like rituals to bind themselves together, and yet are &quot;supernatural skeptics&quot;&lt;/i&gt;
What? I thought they were cuckoo for immortality potions.

&lt;i&gt;I wonder: could ubiquitous surveillance also build social cohesion?&lt;/i&gt;
That &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/09/explainworshipi.html#comment-81642889&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;reminds me of something&lt;/a&gt;.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2006/02/modes_of_religion.php&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Razib on&lt;/a&gt; &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2006/12/monotheism-thread-ball-of-yarn-thats.php&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;buddhism&lt;/a&gt;.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Taoists have religious-like rituals to bind themselves together, and yet are &#8220;supernatural skeptics&#8221;</i><br />
What? I thought they were cuckoo for immortality potions.</p>
<p><i>I wonder: could ubiquitous surveillance also build social cohesion?</i><br />
That <a href="http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/09/explainworshipi.html#comment-81642889" rel="nofollow">reminds me of something</a>.</p>
<p><a href="http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2006/02/modes_of_religion.php" rel="nofollow">Razib on</a> <a href="http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2006/12/monotheism-thread-ball-of-yarn-thats.php" rel="nofollow">buddhism</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: manuelg</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/03/religious-cohes.html#comment-406611</link>
		<dc:creator>manuelg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:35:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/03/religious-cohesion.html#comment-406611</guid>
		<description>&gt; Supernatural entities are not a focus of Buddhism or Taoism.

Dealing with this specific point, in the Chinese and Vietnamese traditions of Buddhism, the Bodhisattvas worship is more like Hindu Deva worship than even the worship of Roman Catholic saints, in a higher intensity in the focus on the supernatural aspects and powers.


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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>> Supernatural entities are not a focus of Buddhism or Taoism.</p>
<p>Dealing with this specific point, in the Chinese and Vietnamese traditions of Buddhism, the Bodhisattvas worship is more like Hindu Deva worship than even the worship of Roman Catholic saints, in a higher intensity in the focus on the supernatural aspects and powers.</p>
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		<title>By: manuelg</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/03/religious-cohes.html#comment-406610</link>
		<dc:creator>manuelg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:27:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/03/religious-cohesion.html#comment-406610</guid>
		<description>&gt; Supernatural entities are not a focus of Buddhism or Taoism. Buddhism is about meditation and enlightenment, and Taoism is about living in harmony with nature.  IMO, these eastern religions are proof of the concept that you can have the cohesive aspects of religion without reliance on supernatural entities.

This is a very western view of Buddhism.  Buddhism is not monolithic, as Christianity is not monolithic.

The Buddhist tradition that I am most familiar with, Vietnamese Buddhism, supernatural entities are believed to exist, hauntings are believed to exist, and it is all found to be quite compatible with Buddhism.

There is no reason to believe any two active Buddhist chosen from the world would be any less different than a Quaker Universalist and a Southern Baptist.

I don&#039;t have personal knowledge, but I have a hard time believing that Taoists are less diverse (granting that active Taoists may be less numerous).


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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>> Supernatural entities are not a focus of Buddhism or Taoism. Buddhism is about meditation and enlightenment, and Taoism is about living in harmony with nature.  IMO, these eastern religions are proof of the concept that you can have the cohesive aspects of religion without reliance on supernatural entities.</p>
<p>This is a very western view of Buddhism.  Buddhism is not monolithic, as Christianity is not monolithic.</p>
<p>The Buddhist tradition that I am most familiar with, Vietnamese Buddhism, supernatural entities are believed to exist, hauntings are believed to exist, and it is all found to be quite compatible with Buddhism.</p>
<p>There is no reason to believe any two active Buddhist chosen from the world would be any less different than a Quaker Universalist and a Southern Baptist.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t have personal knowledge, but I have a hard time believing that Taoists are less diverse (granting that active Taoists may be less numerous).</p>
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