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	<title>Comments on: Believing Too Little</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/02/believing-too-l.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: James Annan</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/02/believing-too-l.html#comment-408340</link>
		<dc:creator>James Annan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Feb 2008 04:09:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/02/believing-too-little.html#comment-408340</guid>
		<description>Robin,

Sorry if it was ambiguous, but my use of the term &quot;defend&quot; was meant as a request for the presentation of some supporting evidence (even anecdotal).
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin,</p>
<p>Sorry if it was ambiguous, but my use of the term &#8220;defend&#8221; was meant as a request for the presentation of some supporting evidence (even anecdotal).</p>
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		<title>By: Mason</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/02/believing-too-l.html#comment-408339</link>
		<dc:creator>Mason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 19:53:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/02/believing-too-little.html#comment-408339</guid>
		<description>&quot;There are two mistakes you can make when you read a scientific paper: You can believe it (a) too much or (b) too little. ....Yet too little belief is just as costly as too much.&quot;

Accounting has this same problem; accounts are falling over themselves to give things the lowest possible value.  This is best summed up in their favorite phrase, &quot;lower of cost or market.&quot;  Understating assets is just as misleading as overstating them, so why do they do it?

Because the pressure in accounting is to overstate.  Being conservative has two advantages; primarily it shows you&#039;re not overstating (adding credibility to the numbers presented), and second, it helps compensate for whatever overstating there is.

In science the pressure is to make new ground breaking discoveries.  Doubting distinguishes one from those who eagerly jump on every new topic and preserve one&#039;s credibility for when a real discovery is made.

If the pattern were not that many more discoveries were claimed than were made doubting would be a bad, but because most claims are false doubting holds value.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;There are two mistakes you can make when you read a scientific paper: You can believe it (a) too much or (b) too little. &#8230;.Yet too little belief is just as costly as too much.&#8221;</p>
<p>Accounting has this same problem; accounts are falling over themselves to give things the lowest possible value.  This is best summed up in their favorite phrase, &#8220;lower of cost or market.&#8221;  Understating assets is just as misleading as overstating them, so why do they do it?</p>
<p>Because the pressure in accounting is to overstate.  Being conservative has two advantages; primarily it shows you&#8217;re not overstating (adding credibility to the numbers presented), and second, it helps compensate for whatever overstating there is.</p>
<p>In science the pressure is to make new ground breaking discoveries.  Doubting distinguishes one from those who eagerly jump on every new topic and preserve one&#8217;s credibility for when a real discovery is made.</p>
<p>If the pattern were not that many more discoveries were claimed than were made doubting would be a bad, but because most claims are false doubting holds value.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Turney</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/02/believing-too-l.html#comment-408338</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Turney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 15:02:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/02/believing-too-little.html#comment-408338</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;(b) Correlation implies either causation or common cause.&lt;/i&gt;

OK, let me take a stab at this: &quot;If A and B are correlated, then either (1) A causes B, (2) B causes A, (3) C causes both A and B, (4) the correlation between A and B is due to random noise and will go away when more data are collected, or (5) A and B are part of a system with feedback loops, and it is not meaningful to ask whether A causes B or B causes A -- they cause each other.&quot;

&lt;i&gt;Academics live to show they are not &quot;simple&quot; like ordinary people, but instead apply complex theories and data analysis techniques.  So academics tend to reject the simple data and simple theories that persuade most people.&lt;/i&gt;

Perhaps the academics are right: There are no simple answers. Consider causality and correlation, for example.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>(b) Correlation implies either causation or common cause.</i></p>
<p>OK, let me take a stab at this: &#8220;If A and B are correlated, then either (1) A causes B, (2) B causes A, (3) C causes both A and B, (4) the correlation between A and B is due to random noise and will go away when more data are collected, or (5) A and B are part of a system with feedback loops, and it is not meaningful to ask whether A causes B or B causes A &#8212; they cause each other.&#8221;</p>
<p><i>Academics live to show they are not &#8220;simple&#8221; like ordinary people, but instead apply complex theories and data analysis techniques.  So academics tend to reject the simple data and simple theories that persuade most people.</i></p>
<p>Perhaps the academics are right: There are no simple answers. Consider causality and correlation, for example.</p>
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		<title>By: Gray Area</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/02/believing-too-l.html#comment-408337</link>
		<dc:creator>Gray Area</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 11:53:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/02/believing-too-little.html#comment-408337</guid>
		<description>&quot;Unfortunately, I don&#039;t know how to reduce it to a simple saying.&quot;

Some examples:

(a) Lack of correlation does not imply lack of causation.

(b) Correlation implies either causation or common cause.

(c) No causes in -- no causes out.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Unfortunately, I don&#8217;t know how to reduce it to a simple saying.&#8221;</p>
<p>Some examples:</p>
<p>(a) Lack of correlation does not imply lack of causation.</p>
<p>(b) Correlation implies either causation or common cause.</p>
<p>(c) No causes in &#8212; no causes out.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/02/believing-too-l.html#comment-408336</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 11:44:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/02/believing-too-little.html#comment-408336</guid>
		<description>Scott, I think evolution and superpositions are more like theories than facts as Seth was using the terms.

James, I still defend my statement.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott, I think evolution and superpositions are more like theories than facts as Seth was using the terms.</p>
<p>James, I still defend my statement.</p>
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		<title>By: James Annan</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/02/believing-too-l.html#comment-408335</link>
		<dc:creator>James Annan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:19:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/02/believing-too-little.html#comment-408335</guid>
		<description>Seth,

Based on your comments it does not seem that Robin&#039;s attempted paraphrase is reasonable. &quot;Negative critiques are the norm&quot; is a far cry from &quot;academics tend to reject the simple data and simple theories that persuade most people&quot;. Is there anyone here who actually wants to defend the latter statement?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seth,</p>
<p>Based on your comments it does not seem that Robin&#8217;s attempted paraphrase is reasonable. &#8220;Negative critiques are the norm&#8221; is a far cry from &#8220;academics tend to reject the simple data and simple theories that persuade most people&#8221;. Is there anyone here who actually wants to defend the latter statement?</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Aaronson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/02/believing-too-l.html#comment-408334</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Aaronson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:28:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/02/believing-too-little.html#comment-408334</guid>
		<description>That seems completely wrong to me -- scientists have (for example) been remonstrating for decades that people believe too little in the fact of evolution, and the fact of human-caused climate change.

Closer to home, I&#039;ve had to tell journalists who were inclined to be cautious about the existence of these so-called &quot;superpositions&quot; and &quot;wave functions&quot; that no, they should &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; be so cautious.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That seems completely wrong to me &#8212; scientists have (for example) been remonstrating for decades that people believe too little in the fact of evolution, and the fact of human-caused climate change.</p>
<p>Closer to home, I&#8217;ve had to tell journalists who were inclined to be cautious about the existence of these so-called &#8220;superpositions&#8221; and &#8220;wave functions&#8221; that no, they should <i>not</i> be so cautious.</p>
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		<title>By: Zubon</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/02/believing-too-l.html#comment-408333</link>
		<dc:creator>Zubon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Feb 2008 19:55:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/02/believing-too-little.html#comment-408333</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;I&#039;m not saying criticism or skepticism is bad; I&#039;m saying that, when scientists encounter new facts, highly unbalanced critiques (much more negative than positive) are the norm. The lack of exploration of what you can learn from new data is the problem -- or the opportunity.&lt;/em&gt;

I would not restrict that to scientists.  I recall an undergraduate philosophy class where the professor opened discussion with instructions to start with what was good about the author, what we could use, rather than critique.  Silence rang out, and it took several minutes for anyone to start getting comfortable with the concept.

Reference online discussions, where &quot;I agree&quot; is usually considered annoying spam rather than useful feedback.  You must have something to add, which usually means a point of disagreement.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>I&#8217;m not saying criticism or skepticism is bad; I&#8217;m saying that, when scientists encounter new facts, highly unbalanced critiques (much more negative than positive) are the norm. The lack of exploration of what you can learn from new data is the problem &#8212; or the opportunity.</em></p>
<p>I would not restrict that to scientists.  I recall an undergraduate philosophy class where the professor opened discussion with instructions to start with what was good about the author, what we could use, rather than critique.  Silence rang out, and it took several minutes for anyone to start getting comfortable with the concept.</p>
<p>Reference online discussions, where &#8220;I agree&#8221; is usually considered annoying spam rather than useful feedback.  You must have something to add, which usually means a point of disagreement.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Turney</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/02/believing-too-l.html#comment-408332</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Turney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Feb 2008 17:41:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/02/believing-too-little.html#comment-408332</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;1. Everyone&#039;s heard &quot;correlation does not imply causation&quot;. I&#039;ve never heard a parallel saying about what correlation does imply. Such a saying is possible; it would be along the lines of &quot;something is better than nothing.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

There is a good answer to this question. See the books of Glymour, Pearl, Spirtes, Scheines, etc.:

http://www.bayesnets.com/CausalityReferences.htm

Unfortunately, I don&#039;t know how to reduce it to a simple saying.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>1. Everyone&#8217;s heard &#8220;correlation does not imply causation&#8221;. I&#8217;ve never heard a parallel saying about what correlation does imply. Such a saying is possible; it would be along the lines of &#8220;something is better than nothing.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>There is a good answer to this question. See the books of Glymour, Pearl, Spirtes, Scheines, etc.:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bayesnets.com/CausalityReferences.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.bayesnets.com/CausalityReferences.htm</a></p>
<p>Unfortunately, I don&#8217;t know how to reduce it to a simple saying.</p>
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		<title>By: Seth Roberts</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/02/believing-too-l.html#comment-408331</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Roberts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Feb 2008 13:05:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2008/02/believing-too-little.html#comment-408331</guid>
		<description>Here are two examples of what I was talking about -- a tendency to focus on the limitations of new data (what can&#039;t be learned from it) and to ignore its strengths (what can be learned from it).

1. Everyone&#039;s heard &quot;correlation does not imply causation&quot;. I&#039;ve never heard a parallel saying about what correlation does imply. Such a saying is possible; it would be along the lines of &quot;something is better than nothing.&quot;

2. Recently I attended a research group meeting in which a postdoc talked about new data she had gathered. The entire discussion was about the problems with it -- what she couldn&#039;t infer from it. There could have been a long discussion about how it added to what we already know, but there wasn&#039;t a word about this.

I&#039;m not saying criticism or skepticism is bad; I&#039;m saying that, when scientists encounter new facts, highly unbalanced critiques (much more negative than positive) are the norm. The lack of exploration of what you can learn from new data is the problem -- or the opportunity.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here are two examples of what I was talking about &#8212; a tendency to focus on the limitations of new data (what can&#8217;t be learned from it) and to ignore its strengths (what can be learned from it).</p>
<p>1. Everyone&#8217;s heard &#8220;correlation does not imply causation&#8221;. I&#8217;ve never heard a parallel saying about what correlation does imply. Such a saying is possible; it would be along the lines of &#8220;something is better than nothing.&#8221;</p>
<p>2. Recently I attended a research group meeting in which a postdoc talked about new data she had gathered. The entire discussion was about the problems with it &#8212; what she couldn&#8217;t infer from it. There could have been a long discussion about how it added to what we already know, but there wasn&#8217;t a word about this.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying criticism or skepticism is bad; I&#8217;m saying that, when scientists encounter new facts, highly unbalanced critiques (much more negative than positive) are the norm. The lack of exploration of what you can learn from new data is the problem &#8212; or the opportunity.</p>
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