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	<title>Comments on: Guardians of the Gene Pool</title>
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	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/12/guardians-of-1.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: Rick Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/12/guardians-of-1.html#comment-410879</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Dec 2007 12:54:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/12/guardians-of-the-gene-pool.html#comment-410879</guid>
		<description>Caledonian, shouldn&#039;t you check up on who currently owns the word &#039;reasoning&#039; before stating that?

I guess there must be some sort of register somewhere...
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Caledonian, shouldn&#8217;t you check up on who currently owns the word &#8216;reasoning&#8217; before stating that?</p>
<p>I guess there must be some sort of register somewhere&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Caledonian</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/12/guardians-of-1.html#comment-410878</link>
		<dc:creator>Caledonian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 14:44:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/12/guardians-of-the-gene-pool.html#comment-410878</guid>
		<description>When you&#039;re determining the value structure of a mind, &quot;ensuring those avenues aren&#039;t attractive options for any reason&quot; IS excluding them from the set of possible courses of action.  The key phrase there is &lt;i&gt;for any reason&lt;/i&gt;.

As for the rest of your argument, reasoning is precisely what the normal human does NOT do, and it&#039;s hilarious that you think logical arguments are what keeps most people from theft.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When you&#8217;re determining the value structure of a mind, &#8220;ensuring those avenues aren&#8217;t attractive options for any reason&#8221; IS excluding them from the set of possible courses of action.  The key phrase there is <i>for any reason</i>.</p>
<p>As for the rest of your argument, reasoning is precisely what the normal human does NOT do, and it&#8217;s hilarious that you think logical arguments are what keeps most people from theft.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Jones</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/12/guardians-of-1.html#comment-410877</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 13:37:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/12/guardians-of-the-gene-pool.html#comment-410877</guid>
		<description>Sure - it&#039;s the difference between not stealing because you think you&#039;ll get caught and go to prison, and not stealing because you think theft is irrational/immoral/wrong/you name it. The first is sociopathy, the second is what we&#039;d term normal human reasoning. Can I assume you believe there is no such thing as a Friendly AI?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure &#8211; it&#8217;s the difference between not stealing because you think you&#8217;ll get caught and go to prison, and not stealing because you think theft is irrational/immoral/wrong/you name it. The first is sociopathy, the second is what we&#8217;d term normal human reasoning. Can I assume you believe there is no such thing as a Friendly AI?</p>
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		<title>By: Caledonian</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/12/guardians-of-1.html#comment-410876</link>
		<dc:creator>Caledonian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 12:08:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/12/guardians-of-the-gene-pool.html#comment-410876</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The crux isn&#039;t excluding branches of possible action by an AI, it&#039;s ensuring those avenues aren&#039;t attractive options for any reason.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

(agog)

Would you care to explain what the distinction between those two states is?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The crux isn&#8217;t excluding branches of possible action by an AI, it&#8217;s ensuring those avenues aren&#8217;t attractive options for any reason.</p></blockquote>
<p>(agog)</p>
<p>Would you care to explain what the distinction between those two states is?</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Jones</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/12/guardians-of-1.html#comment-410875</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 11:34:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/12/guardians-of-the-gene-pool.html#comment-410875</guid>
		<description>Caledonian,

Yes, it has occurred to &#039;them&#039;. I hope you haven&#039;t read http://www.singinst.org/AIRisk.pdf, since if you have, you haven&#039;t grasped the challenge. The crux isn&#039;t excluding branches of possible action by an AI, it&#039;s ensuring those avenues aren&#039;t attractive options for any reason.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Caledonian,</p>
<p>Yes, it has occurred to &#8216;them&#8217;. I hope you haven&#8217;t read <a href="http://www.singinst.org/AIRisk.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.singinst.org/AIRisk.pdf</a>, since if you have, you haven&#8217;t grasped the challenge. The crux isn&#8217;t excluding branches of possible action by an AI, it&#8217;s ensuring those avenues aren&#8217;t attractive options for any reason.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/12/guardians-of-1.html#comment-410874</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 08:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/12/guardians-of-the-gene-pool.html#comment-410874</guid>
		<description>caledonian said: &quot;Perhaps the possibility that a consequence of an entity being utterly good might be its being utterly unsafe has never occurred to them.&quot;

This describes monotheism rather well. It has occured to me.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>caledonian said: &#8220;Perhaps the possibility that a consequence of an entity being utterly good might be its being utterly unsafe has never occurred to them.&#8221;</p>
<p>This describes monotheism rather well. It has occured to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Caledonian</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/12/guardians-of-1.html#comment-410873</link>
		<dc:creator>Caledonian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 12:53:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/12/guardians-of-the-gene-pool.html#comment-410873</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Caledonian - I&#039;d say that one of the key concepts in my current understanding of the Singularity is that it&#039;s the polar opposite of a hard-wired goal. Surely the very idea is that we don&#039;t know what happens inside/beyond a singularity, hence the name?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The whole point of attempting a &quot;Friendly AI&quot; is that its proponents believe that it IS possible to exclude entire branches of possibility from an AI&#039;s courses of action - that the superhuman intelligence can be made safe.  Not merely friendly in a human sense, but favorable to human interests, not &#039;evil&#039;.

Of course, they cannot provide an objective and rigorous description of what &quot;being in human interests&quot; actually entails, nor can they explain clearly what &#039;evil&#039; is.  But they know it when they see it, apparently.  And since many of them seem to believe that &#039;values&#039; are arbitrary, they&#039;ve never bothered subjecting what they value to analysis.

Perhaps the possibility that a consequence of an entity being utterly good might be its being utterly unsafe has never occurred to them.  And perhaps the possibility that superhuman general intelligence might analyze their values and find them lacking never occurred to them either.  That would explain a lot.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Caledonian &#8211; I&#8217;d say that one of the key concepts in my current understanding of the Singularity is that it&#8217;s the polar opposite of a hard-wired goal. Surely the very idea is that we don&#8217;t know what happens inside/beyond a singularity, hence the name?</p></blockquote>
<p>The whole point of attempting a &#8220;Friendly AI&#8221; is that its proponents believe that it IS possible to exclude entire branches of possibility from an AI&#8217;s courses of action &#8211; that the superhuman intelligence can be made safe.  Not merely friendly in a human sense, but favorable to human interests, not &#8216;evil&#8217;.</p>
<p>Of course, they cannot provide an objective and rigorous description of what &#8220;being in human interests&#8221; actually entails, nor can they explain clearly what &#8216;evil&#8217; is.  But they know it when they see it, apparently.  And since many of them seem to believe that &#8216;values&#8217; are arbitrary, they&#8217;ve never bothered subjecting what they value to analysis.</p>
<p>Perhaps the possibility that a consequence of an entity being utterly good might be its being utterly unsafe has never occurred to them.  And perhaps the possibility that superhuman general intelligence might analyze their values and find them lacking never occurred to them either.  That would explain a lot.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Jones</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/12/guardians-of-1.html#comment-410872</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 09:27:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/12/guardians-of-the-gene-pool.html#comment-410872</guid>
		<description>Retrospective apologies for the long post - will keep it brief in future!
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Retrospective apologies for the long post &#8211; will keep it brief in future!</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Jones</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/12/guardians-of-1.html#comment-410871</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 09:12:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/12/guardians-of-the-gene-pool.html#comment-410871</guid>
		<description>A fair point, Eliezer. I&#039;d agree that if it weren&#039;t for dis/confirmation biases, nothing would ever get done. If Einstein, when questioned about what he would have done if his special theory was disproved, had said &#039;meh, I can take it or leave it,&#039; he probably wouldn&#039;t have had the drive to discover it in the first place. Attachment to your Big Idea is often what drives us.

That said, I don&#039;t see that a Big Idea About The Future is so different from a Big Idea About The Past in terms of value for humanity. Both can be open or closed, pacifistic or violent, inclusive or exclusive. It&#039;s what you do with it that counts! The question of whether the Singularity as currently defined has positive utility for the human race is not a given, neither will it be unanimous.

I&#039;ve tried and tried, but I can&#039;t think of any other Big Ideas that have stemmed from people looking at where science and technology are going, and extrapolating them to a future point. Perhaps someone who&#039;s less hungover can think of one. Office Christmas do last night, still coming around.

Caledonian - I&#039;d say that one of the key concepts in my current understanding of the Singularity is that it&#039;s the polar opposite of a hard-wired goal. Surely the very idea is that we don&#039;t know what happens inside/beyond a singularity, hence the name?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A fair point, Eliezer. I&#8217;d agree that if it weren&#8217;t for dis/confirmation biases, nothing would ever get done. If Einstein, when questioned about what he would have done if his special theory was disproved, had said &#8216;meh, I can take it or leave it,&#8217; he probably wouldn&#8217;t have had the drive to discover it in the first place. Attachment to your Big Idea is often what drives us.</p>
<p>That said, I don&#8217;t see that a Big Idea About The Future is so different from a Big Idea About The Past in terms of value for humanity. Both can be open or closed, pacifistic or violent, inclusive or exclusive. It&#8217;s what you do with it that counts! The question of whether the Singularity as currently defined has positive utility for the human race is not a given, neither will it be unanimous.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve tried and tried, but I can&#8217;t think of any other Big Ideas that have stemmed from people looking at where science and technology are going, and extrapolating them to a future point. Perhaps someone who&#8217;s less hungover can think of one. Office Christmas do last night, still coming around.</p>
<p>Caledonian &#8211; I&#8217;d say that one of the key concepts in my current understanding of the Singularity is that it&#8217;s the polar opposite of a hard-wired goal. Surely the very idea is that we don&#8217;t know what happens inside/beyond a singularity, hence the name?</p>
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		<title>By: Peter de Blanc</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/12/guardians-of-1.html#comment-410870</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter de Blanc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2007 05:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/12/guardians-of-the-gene-pool.html#comment-410870</guid>
		<description>Values (that is, goals of optimizers) are vastly meaningful; they affect the future shape of the universe.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Values (that is, goals of optimizers) are vastly meaningful; they affect the future shape of the universe.</p>
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