Comments on: Doctor Hypocrisy http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/12/doctors-lie.html Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future. Sat, 11 Feb 2012 21:40:12 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.3 By: Alexa Blue http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/12/doctors-lie.html#comment-411338 Alexa Blue Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:36:22 +0000 http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/12/doctor-hypocrisy.html#comment-411338 Ben: Perhaps we should expect a lower moral standard of doctors (and reward them accordingly). Ben: Perhaps we should expect a lower moral standard of doctors (and reward them accordingly).

]]> By: Ben Jones http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/12/doctors-lie.html#comment-411337 Ben Jones Wed, 12 Dec 2007 17:24:04 +0000 http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/12/doctor-hypocrisy.html#comment-411337 Doctor hypocrisy? Surely the title you were looking for was 'Hippocrisy'. [Very pleased with that one!] Doctor hypocrisy? Surely the title you were looking for was ‘Hippocrisy’.

[Very pleased with that one!]

]]> By: Ben Jones http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/12/doctors-lie.html#comment-411336 Ben Jones Mon, 10 Dec 2007 11:41:20 +0000 http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/12/doctor-hypocrisy.html#comment-411336 It's wonderful how a lawyer schmoozing and lying his way through his profession is pleasant confirmation of our steretypes, but a doctor referring a patient to a centre in which he has an interest is a massive shock. It's akin to calling Britney a terrible mother while stuffing your kid with chips and white bread. People are not automata. They will protect their own interests, they will be lazy, they will lie, and they will be contradictory. They will do this whether they are lawyers, doctors, aid workers or soldiers. Should we scrutinise the medical profession due to its immense power? Yes. Should we expect a higher moral standard of doctors than we demonstrate in our daily lives? Good luck. It’s wonderful how a lawyer schmoozing and lying his way through his profession is pleasant confirmation of our steretypes, but a doctor referring a patient to a centre in which he has an interest is a massive shock. It’s akin to calling Britney a terrible mother while stuffing your kid with chips and white bread. People are not automata. They will protect their own interests, they will be lazy, they will lie, and they will be contradictory. They will do this whether they are lawyers, doctors, aid workers or soldiers. Should we scrutinise the medical profession due to its immense power? Yes. Should we expect a higher moral standard of doctors than we demonstrate in our daily lives? Good luck.

]]> By: botogol http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/12/doctors-lie.html#comment-411335 botogol Mon, 10 Dec 2007 08:05:56 +0000 http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/12/doctor-hypocrisy.html#comment-411335 problem is : if we fired every doctor who ever made a bad mistake... then we'd have no doctors. So we'd be worse off. So: - too few cover ups: maxuimum exposure, too few doctors - too many cover ups: incompetent doctors (who make more-than-average-errors) continue to practive. With some assumptions about error rates It shouldn't be too hard to construct a mathematical model that shows what is the optimum level of cover-up. problem is : if we fired every doctor who ever made a bad mistake… then we’d have no doctors. So we’d be worse off.

So:
- too few cover ups: maxuimum exposure, too few doctors
- too many cover ups: incompetent doctors (who make more-than-average-errors) continue to practive.

With some assumptions about error rates It shouldn’t be too hard to construct a mathematical model that shows what is the optimum level of cover-up.

]]> By: TGGP http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/12/doctors-lie.html#comment-411334 TGGP Sat, 08 Dec 2007 18:44:08 +0000 http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/12/doctor-hypocrisy.html#comment-411334 Mark Miller <a href="http://www.eros-os.org/pipermail/e-lang/2004-February/009555.html" rel="nofollow">suggests</a> using the term "vulnerable" in place of "trusted" in certain situations. Mark Miller suggests using the term “vulnerable” in place of “trusted” in certain situations.

]]> By: Jor http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/12/doctors-lie.html#comment-411333 Jor Sat, 08 Dec 2007 16:21:52 +0000 http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/12/doctor-hypocrisy.html#comment-411333 Stuart: I'd say its probably realistic for patients that have been seeing the same doctor for 5-10 years, then lose health insurance for a year or two. The physician they already have a relationship with, will often continue seeing them at minimal charge. In that context, I'd believe the 70% statistic. Stuart: I’d say its probably realistic for patients that have been seeing the same doctor for 5-10 years, then lose health insurance for a year or two. The physician they already have a relationship with, will often continue seeing them at minimal charge. In that context, I’d believe the 70% statistic.

]]> By: douglas http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/12/doctors-lie.html#comment-411332 douglas Sat, 08 Dec 2007 15:25:09 +0000 http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/12/doctor-hypocrisy.html#comment-411332 When I worked in a hospital I saw some things that shouldn't be. A major source of the difficulty, it seems to me, is the way doctors who do get reported are treated. For example, a doctor who has been giving excellent care for years might make a mistake. Other doctors might want to report that mistake, but if they do a malpractice suit may follow, ruining a good doctors career and driving up all their costs of doing business. Another scenario is when the doctors figure this not so good doctor is better than none at all. This is a sad situation caused by barriers to entry to the medical profession. And of course there are those who just get away with murderous malpractice- (a smaller subset of the total than one might expect from the statistics quoted). When I worked in a hospital I saw some things that shouldn’t be. A major source of the difficulty, it seems to me, is the way doctors who do get reported are treated.
For example, a doctor who has been giving excellent care for years might make a mistake. Other doctors might want to report that mistake, but if they do a malpractice suit may follow, ruining a good doctors career and driving up all their costs of doing business.
Another scenario is when the doctors figure this not so good doctor is better than none at all. This is a sad situation caused by barriers to entry to the medical profession.
And of course there are those who just get away with murderous malpractice- (a smaller subset of the total than one might expect from the statistics quoted).

]]> By: Stuart Armstrong http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/12/doctors-lie.html#comment-411331 Stuart Armstrong Sat, 08 Dec 2007 07:27:44 +0000 http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/12/doctor-hypocrisy.html#comment-411331 <i>It seems the statement "I can trust my doctor" is more true than "doctors can be trusted".</i> And that might be why it's so hard to get people to see that there's a problem... It seems the statement “I can trust my doctor” is more true than “doctors can be trusted”.

And that might be why it’s so hard to get people to see that there’s a problem…

]]> By: Stuart Armstrong http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/12/doctors-lie.html#comment-411330 Stuart Armstrong Sat, 08 Dec 2007 07:22:26 +0000 http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/12/doctor-hypocrisy.html#comment-411330 <i>Which lets them get away with ...</i> Violating trust and keeping their image intact. But there's something very interesting about the ways doctor's are flawed. With one exception, the flaws are not something that a current patient of the doctor would understand as a betrayal (the one exception is <i>a majority said they would refer patients to an imaging facility in which they had a financial interest</i>, but that's borderline - as long as the doctor convinces himself that the imaging is needed, then he can justify to himself that that isn't a violation of trust). It seems that doctors are strongly motivated to avoid looking a patient in the eye and doing something that patient would take as a betrayal. It seems the statement "<i>I</i> can trust <i>my</i> doctor" is more true than "doctors can be trusted". Incidentally, is the statistic <i>69 percent currently accept uninsured patients who are unable to pay</i> reliable? That seems absurdly altruistic... Which lets them get away with …

Violating trust and keeping their image intact.

But there’s something very interesting about the ways doctor’s are flawed. With one exception, the flaws are not something that a current patient of the doctor would understand as a betrayal (the one exception is a majority said they would refer patients to an imaging facility in which they had a financial interest, but that’s borderline – as long as the doctor convinces himself that the imaging is needed, then he can justify to himself that that isn’t a violation of trust).

It seems that doctors are strongly motivated to avoid looking a patient in the eye and doing something that patient would take as a betrayal. It seems the statement “I can trust my doctor” is more true than “doctors can be trusted”.

Incidentally, is the statistic 69 percent currently accept uninsured patients who are unable to pay reliable? That seems absurdly altruistic…

]]> By: Robin Hanson http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/12/doctors-lie.html#comment-411329 Robin Hanson Fri, 07 Dec 2007 21:50:34 +0000 http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/12/doctor-hypocrisy.html#comment-411329 Konrad, Caledonian and peatey finished the sentence adequately. Konrad, Caledonian and peatey finished the sentence adequately.

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