<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: What Insight Literature?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/11/what-insight-li.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/11/what-insight-li.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:16:27 -0400</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: James C</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/11/what-insight-li.html#comment-411752</link>
		<dc:creator>James C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 11:13:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/11/what-insight-literature.html#comment-411752</guid>
		<description>(i say this without having read the other comments - their combined length seems about four times that of the article itself).

Fiction&#039;s insights are implicit, philosophy&#039;s are explicit.  In fiction aiming at a reasonable-level of realisim, the author is aiming at working out a realistic scenario.

They are usually trying to highlight certain features of that scenario, and because of this, it is designed for the reader to draw certain conclusions about it (e.g. about the nature of NGOs).

But what the author explicitly specifies is the scenario - the conclusions and, in particular, the model of why those conclusions are the case, is left somewhat implicit.

We are pretty good at evaluating concrete descriptions of scenarios, which helps the author to construct a reasonably realistic scenario.

Philosophers, on the other hand, tend to work on the level of general models: general descriptions that are abstracted away from specific scenarios.  Descriptions that explicitly talk about why certain things are the case, /in general/.

These are harder for us to evaluate.  And it is harder for us to incorporate nauances within models than within stories.

I&#039;m not trying to say that stories &quot;are better&quot;.  I think that&#039;s why there is value to be had in both, and personally, I&#039;m more interested in trying to draw the general, explicit lessons - the kind of thing philsophy is more targed at.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(i say this without having read the other comments &#8211; their combined length seems about four times that of the article itself).</p>
<p>Fiction&#8217;s insights are implicit, philosophy&#8217;s are explicit.  In fiction aiming at a reasonable-level of realisim, the author is aiming at working out a realistic scenario.</p>
<p>They are usually trying to highlight certain features of that scenario, and because of this, it is designed for the reader to draw certain conclusions about it (e.g. about the nature of NGOs).</p>
<p>But what the author explicitly specifies is the scenario &#8211; the conclusions and, in particular, the model of why those conclusions are the case, is left somewhat implicit.</p>
<p>We are pretty good at evaluating concrete descriptions of scenarios, which helps the author to construct a reasonably realistic scenario.</p>
<p>Philosophers, on the other hand, tend to work on the level of general models: general descriptions that are abstracted away from specific scenarios.  Descriptions that explicitly talk about why certain things are the case, /in general/.</p>
<p>These are harder for us to evaluate.  And it is harder for us to incorporate nauances within models than within stories.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not trying to say that stories &#8220;are better&#8221;.  I think that&#8217;s why there is value to be had in both, and personally, I&#8217;m more interested in trying to draw the general, explicit lessons &#8211; the kind of thing philsophy is more targed at.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: alvar</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/11/what-insight-li.html#comment-411751</link>
		<dc:creator>alvar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 03:58:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/11/what-insight-literature.html#comment-411751</guid>
		<description>The heart might know things the mind knows nothing of, but the heart cant&#039; be challenged. Literature and the arts can provide insights, but reason and philosophical thought allow ideas to be developed, analyzed challenged and determined to be correct or incorrect based on the standard of reason. Ideas challenged create the structure by which civilization&#039;s ideas of Truth advance. Good  literature (and the arts in general) doesn&#039;t have to be reasonable to convey a message of Truth (it has to convey a message of Truth to be good however) and therefore can&#039;t be reasonably determined to be correct or incorrect.

Just my 2 cents...
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The heart might know things the mind knows nothing of, but the heart cant&#8217; be challenged. Literature and the arts can provide insights, but reason and philosophical thought allow ideas to be developed, analyzed challenged and determined to be correct or incorrect based on the standard of reason. Ideas challenged create the structure by which civilization&#8217;s ideas of Truth advance. Good  literature (and the arts in general) doesn&#8217;t have to be reasonable to convey a message of Truth (it has to convey a message of Truth to be good however) and therefore can&#8217;t be reasonably determined to be correct or incorrect.</p>
<p>Just my 2 cents&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Marc_G</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/11/what-insight-li.html#comment-411750</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc_G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 06:09:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/11/what-insight-literature.html#comment-411750</guid>
		<description>Robin,

The advice at the link below may be of benefit for certain other writers at this blog:

http://www.hollylisle.com/fm/Articles/saving_the_world.html
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin,</p>
<p>The advice at the link below may be of benefit for certain other writers at this blog:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.hollylisle.com/fm/Articles/saving_the_world.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.hollylisle.com/fm/Articles/saving_the_world.html</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Shakespeare's Fool</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/11/what-insight-li.html#comment-411749</link>
		<dc:creator>Shakespeare's Fool</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2007 03:23:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/11/what-insight-literature.html#comment-411749</guid>
		<description>The trash and nonsense in Marx&#039;s journals
seems to have taken root in more minds
than much fiction. But, then, Marx was
fiction, wasn&#039;t it.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The trash and nonsense in Marx&#8217;s journals<br />
seems to have taken root in more minds<br />
than much fiction. But, then, Marx was<br />
fiction, wasn&#8217;t it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Caledonian</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/11/what-insight-li.html#comment-411748</link>
		<dc:creator>Caledonian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:56:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/11/what-insight-literature.html#comment-411748</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Of course, they didn&#039;t measure whether this is the most efficient way to gain such understanding. It&#039;s possible that one could gain it as easily by reading psychology journals.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Neither the fiction nor the journals are likely to contain genuine insights - although there will certainly be exceptions, the vast majority of both will consist of trash and nonsense.

But the trash and nonsense embedded in the fiction is far more likely to take root in your mind than the trash and nonsense in the journals.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Of course, they didn&#8217;t measure whether this is the most efficient way to gain such understanding. It&#8217;s possible that one could gain it as easily by reading psychology journals.</p></blockquote>
<p>Neither the fiction nor the journals are likely to contain genuine insights &#8211; although there will certainly be exceptions, the vast majority of both will consist of trash and nonsense.</p>
<p>But the trash and nonsense embedded in the fiction is far more likely to take root in your mind than the trash and nonsense in the journals.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: April</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/11/what-insight-li.html#comment-411747</link>
		<dc:creator>April</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 21:54:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/11/what-insight-literature.html#comment-411747</guid>
		<description>Thanks Robin for motivating this fascinating discussion.
In case other readers didn&#039;t have a chance to follow the link posted above by anonymous, it linked to a study &quot;Bookworms versus nerds: Exposure to fiction versus non-fiction, divergent associations with social ability, and the simulation of fictional social worlds&quot; by Raymond Mar et al.
The study finds that people who read fiction (vs non-fiction) have better skills in comprehending their peers. (yes, yes, I know we need to understand the selection bias) - but if you take the result as is for a moment, it does suggest that one can gain insight - if you define that to mean understanding of the people around you - by reading fiction.  Of course, they didn&#039;t measure whether this is the most efficient way to gain such understanding. It&#039;s possible that one could gain it as easily by reading psychology journals.  But that would be much less fun.


</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Robin for motivating this fascinating discussion.<br />
In case other readers didn&#8217;t have a chance to follow the link posted above by anonymous, it linked to a study &#8220;Bookworms versus nerds: Exposure to fiction versus non-fiction, divergent associations with social ability, and the simulation of fictional social worlds&#8221; by Raymond Mar et al.<br />
The study finds that people who read fiction (vs non-fiction) have better skills in comprehending their peers. (yes, yes, I know we need to understand the selection bias) &#8211; but if you take the result as is for a moment, it does suggest that one can gain insight &#8211; if you define that to mean understanding of the people around you &#8211; by reading fiction.  Of course, they didn&#8217;t measure whether this is the most efficient way to gain such understanding. It&#8217;s possible that one could gain it as easily by reading psychology journals.  But that would be much less fun.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Doug S.</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/11/what-insight-li.html#comment-411746</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:30:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/11/what-insight-literature.html#comment-411746</guid>
		<description>Is there insight in, say, George Orwell&#039;s &lt;i&gt;1984&lt;/i&gt;?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is there insight in, say, George Orwell&#8217;s <i>1984</i>?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Halvard</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/11/what-insight-li.html#comment-411745</link>
		<dc:creator>Halvard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 07:53:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/11/what-insight-literature.html#comment-411745</guid>
		<description>Some small points:

First. Sartre published both works of literature and works of philosophy. Does anyone know why he chose both forms? Surely not just to reach more people?

Second. Many of the philosophers of the past had the notion that the written word &quot;told&quot; the brain what to think and that important ideas should be understood (and not just read) and therefore the best way was to explain between the lines. This goes well with the idea that literature surely can explain some extra quality.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some small points:</p>
<p>First. Sartre published both works of literature and works of philosophy. Does anyone know why he chose both forms? Surely not just to reach more people?</p>
<p>Second. Many of the philosophers of the past had the notion that the written word &#8220;told&#8221; the brain what to think and that important ideas should be understood (and not just read) and therefore the best way was to explain between the lines. This goes well with the idea that literature surely can explain some extra quality.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Shakespeare's Fool</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/11/what-insight-li.html#comment-411744</link>
		<dc:creator>Shakespeare's Fool</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 05:30:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/11/what-insight-literature.html#comment-411744</guid>
		<description>How many of Plato&#039;s students were successful
advisers to the rulers they advised? How many
of Hegel&#039;s disciples improved the life-span,
living conditions, and increased the freedom
of the people whose countries they governed?

Is there not error, bias, and folly in every
endeavor to which the human mind has turned?

Was Richard III as evil as Shakespeare wrote
him? Did witches prophesy Macbeth&#039;s rise and
fall? How many reports of development
economists are any more anchored in verifiable
observation than Macbeth&#039;s of Banquo&#039;s ghost?
More than one, perhaps? More than one on each
of the seven sides of an issue? If there are
seven grant making agencies with competing
agendas, who here would bet against it?

Literature never of itself brought us as much
science as the boiling point of water.
But while cummings proclaimed:

&quot;when serpents bargain for the right to squirm. .  .

&quot;and march denounces april as a saboteur

&quot;then we&#039;ll believe in that incredible
unanimal mankind (and not until)&quot;


how much philosophy, economics, psychology
and the rest of science is suited only to
a unending variety of &quot;unanimal&quot; mankinds?



</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How many of Plato&#8217;s students were successful<br />
advisers to the rulers they advised? How many<br />
of Hegel&#8217;s disciples improved the life-span,<br />
living conditions, and increased the freedom<br />
of the people whose countries they governed?</p>
<p>Is there not error, bias, and folly in every<br />
endeavor to which the human mind has turned?</p>
<p>Was Richard III as evil as Shakespeare wrote<br />
him? Did witches prophesy Macbeth&#8217;s rise and<br />
fall? How many reports of development<br />
economists are any more anchored in verifiable<br />
observation than Macbeth&#8217;s of Banquo&#8217;s ghost?<br />
More than one, perhaps? More than one on each<br />
of the seven sides of an issue? If there are<br />
seven grant making agencies with competing<br />
agendas, who here would bet against it?</p>
<p>Literature never of itself brought us as much<br />
science as the boiling point of water.<br />
But while cummings proclaimed:</p>
<p>&#8220;when serpents bargain for the right to squirm. .  .</p>
<p>&#8220;and march denounces april as a saboteur</p>
<p>&#8220;then we&#8217;ll believe in that incredible<br />
unanimal mankind (and not until)&#8221;</p>
<p>how much philosophy, economics, psychology<br />
and the rest of science is suited only to<br />
a unending variety of &#8220;unanimal&#8221; mankinds?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/11/what-insight-li.html#comment-411743</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 05:22:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/11/what-insight-literature.html#comment-411743</guid>
		<description>Benquo:

&quot;Sean, are you sure Plato failed to understand Homer&#039;s true appeal?

Remember, the famous &quot;ancient quarrel&quot; quote is from Republic, and has a political context. Homer is subversive because he speaks the truth about human affairs, in a way that calls into question the Noble Lie. Also, many of Socrates&#039;s criticisms of Poetry can also be applied to Plato&#039;s Republic quite easily, so it would be strange to ascribe those views to Plato himself.&quot;

With regard to Homer&#039;s &quot;appeal,&quot; I probably worded that wrongly.  I should have said something like &quot;value&quot; instead.  What I was getting at was that Plato had a point that literature can lie, and still be convincing.  Plato&#039;s reasons for dismissing Homer were wrong (at least for me, because I don&#039;t share the philosophical commitments in that text).

I agree that the view shouldn&#039;t necessarily be ascribed to Plato--but rather to Socrates in that specific text.  In fact, the discussions he has of art throughout his writings are often conflicting.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Benquo:</p>
<p>&#8220;Sean, are you sure Plato failed to understand Homer&#8217;s true appeal?</p>
<p>Remember, the famous &#8220;ancient quarrel&#8221; quote is from Republic, and has a political context. Homer is subversive because he speaks the truth about human affairs, in a way that calls into question the Noble Lie. Also, many of Socrates&#8217;s criticisms of Poetry can also be applied to Plato&#8217;s Republic quite easily, so it would be strange to ascribe those views to Plato himself.&#8221;</p>
<p>With regard to Homer&#8217;s &#8220;appeal,&#8221; I probably worded that wrongly.  I should have said something like &#8220;value&#8221; instead.  What I was getting at was that Plato had a point that literature can lie, and still be convincing.  Plato&#8217;s reasons for dismissing Homer were wrong (at least for me, because I don&#8217;t share the philosophical commitments in that text).</p>
<p>I agree that the view shouldn&#8217;t necessarily be ascribed to Plato&#8211;but rather to Socrates in that specific text.  In fact, the discussions he has of art throughout his writings are often conflicting.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
