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	<title>Comments on: Even When Contrarians Win, They Lose</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/09/even-when-contr.html/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/09/even-when-contr.html</link>
	<description>Overcoming Bias is economist Robin Hanson’s blog, on honesty, signaling, disagreement, forecasting, and the far future.</description>
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		<title>By: Overcoming Bias : Academia&#8217;s Function</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/09/even-when-contr.html#comment-429998</link>
		<dc:creator>Overcoming Bias : Academia&#8217;s Function</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jul 2009 10:01:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/09/even-when-contrarians-win-they-lose.html#comment-429998</guid>
		<description>[...] functions mainly to signal, much like art and sport. (See here here here here here here here here here.).  But for Andrew&#8217;s sake, let&#8217;s lay out the argument more [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] functions mainly to signal, much like art and sport. (See here here here here here here here here here.).  But for Andrew&#8217;s sake, let&#8217;s lay out the argument more [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Phil Goetz</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/09/even-when-contr.html#comment-415070</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Goetz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 21:30:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/09/even-when-contrarians-win-they-lose.html#comment-415070</guid>
		<description>Your idea is contrarian, and so are you.  I deny it and distance myself from you.

There is a phenomenon in which someone gains great fame and wealth by holding a radical position; is empirically proved to have been completely wrong; and yet continues to enjoy fame and wealth for continuing to hold the same opinion that was proven to be wrong.  George Gilder (&quot;Trust the Internet now more than ever&quot;), Paul Ehrlich (&lt;i&gt;The Population Bomb&lt;/i&gt;: Hundreds of millions of people will die of starvation in the 1970s), and Hal Lindsey (&lt;i&gt;The Late Great Planet Earth&lt;/i&gt;: Christ will return in the 1970s) come to mind.

If this website used a forum instead of a typepad format, there would be much more incentive to follow up to old topics like this.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your idea is contrarian, and so are you.  I deny it and distance myself from you.</p>
<p>There is a phenomenon in which someone gains great fame and wealth by holding a radical position; is empirically proved to have been completely wrong; and yet continues to enjoy fame and wealth for continuing to hold the same opinion that was proven to be wrong.  George Gilder (&#8221;Trust the Internet now more than ever&#8221;), Paul Ehrlich (<i>The Population Bomb</i>: Hundreds of millions of people will die of starvation in the 1970s), and Hal Lindsey (<i>The Late Great Planet Earth</i>: Christ will return in the 1970s) come to mind.</p>
<p>If this website used a forum instead of a typepad format, there would be much more incentive to follow up to old topics like this.</p>
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		<title>By: Adirian</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/09/even-when-contr.html#comment-415069</link>
		<dc:creator>Adirian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Oct 2007 01:21:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/09/even-when-contrarians-win-they-lose.html#comment-415069</guid>
		<description>Robin - in my case, at least, the reward of contrarian thinking is in being correct.  (As, if I didn&#039;t believe I was correct, I wouldn&#039;t hold that viewpoint.)  The reward of being open about those views in which I am contrarian is that it gives my ideas an opportunity to develop - that is, if I am wrong about something, somebody is likely to point out my mistake, giving me the opportunity to learn from it, that I might be correct the next time.  And insofar as I am correct, and by this process develop a tendency to be correct more often, I gain on the whole, even where some individual ideas may be less individually rewarding than would otherwise be the case.  (That is, I am most often on the right side, and thus minimize the risk that the non-contrarian undertakes by attempting to run with a rising popular current, when the new position might fall flat on its face - as Carl Sagan did with nuclear winter and many other popularists have done by embracing other rising minority issues.)
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin &#8211; in my case, at least, the reward of contrarian thinking is in being correct.  (As, if I didn&#8217;t believe I was correct, I wouldn&#8217;t hold that viewpoint.)  The reward of being open about those views in which I am contrarian is that it gives my ideas an opportunity to develop &#8211; that is, if I am wrong about something, somebody is likely to point out my mistake, giving me the opportunity to learn from it, that I might be correct the next time.  And insofar as I am correct, and by this process develop a tendency to be correct more often, I gain on the whole, even where some individual ideas may be less individually rewarding than would otherwise be the case.  (That is, I am most often on the right side, and thus minimize the risk that the non-contrarian undertakes by attempting to run with a rising popular current, when the new position might fall flat on its face &#8211; as Carl Sagan did with nuclear winter and many other popularists have done by embracing other rising minority issues.)</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/09/even-when-contr.html#comment-415068</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Sep 2007 14:45:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/09/even-when-contrarians-win-they-lose.html#comment-415068</guid>
		<description>Zubon, it should be clear from my post that I wasn&#039;t talking about pundits.

Mark and Adirian, yes it is plausible that people who choose contrarian strategies have somewhat differing preferences, though it is hardly obvious what exactly those differences are.  Nevertheless, they do care about some of the same things, and so it is important to consider whether they are sufficiently rewarded for the risks they take.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zubon, it should be clear from my post that I wasn&#8217;t talking about pundits.</p>
<p>Mark and Adirian, yes it is plausible that people who choose contrarian strategies have somewhat differing preferences, though it is hardly obvious what exactly those differences are.  Nevertheless, they do care about some of the same things, and so it is important to consider whether they are sufficiently rewarded for the risks they take.</p>
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		<title>By: Adirian</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/09/even-when-contr.html#comment-415067</link>
		<dc:creator>Adirian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Sep 2007 04:21:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/09/even-when-contrarians-win-they-lose.html#comment-415067</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m going with the contrary position, which a few have already put forward - that perhaps you are using the wrong currency when considering the advantages or disadvantages of a contrarian position.  If your intellectual position is nothing more than a means to fame or fortune, then your intellectual position means little, particularly to yourself.  But to what ends do we desire fame and fortune?  What good is fame, if it is for qualities you do not possess?  (Who wants to be respected for being somebody they aren&#039;t?)  What is the point in fortune, if you have thrown away everything you valued to achieve it?  You can&#039;t replace self-respect with group-respect, and you can&#039;t buy back your integrity, or the things that integrity protected.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m going with the contrary position, which a few have already put forward &#8211; that perhaps you are using the wrong currency when considering the advantages or disadvantages of a contrarian position.  If your intellectual position is nothing more than a means to fame or fortune, then your intellectual position means little, particularly to yourself.  But to what ends do we desire fame and fortune?  What good is fame, if it is for qualities you do not possess?  (Who wants to be respected for being somebody they aren&#8217;t?)  What is the point in fortune, if you have thrown away everything you valued to achieve it?  You can&#8217;t replace self-respect with group-respect, and you can&#8217;t buy back your integrity, or the things that integrity protected.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Bahner</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/09/even-when-contr.html#comment-415066</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Bahner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Sep 2007 04:05:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/09/even-when-contrarians-win-they-lose.html#comment-415066</guid>
		<description>Maybe contrarians aren&#039;t as interested in fame and fortune as they are in being *right.*

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe contrarians aren&#8217;t as interested in fame and fortune as they are in being *right.*</p>
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		<title>By: Shakespeare's Fool</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/09/even-when-contr.html#comment-415065</link>
		<dc:creator>Shakespeare's Fool</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2007 20:37:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/09/even-when-contrarians-win-they-lose.html#comment-415065</guid>
		<description>Robin Hanson,

You are correct. In my post I was not drawing on
my own experience. But that would be difficult.
I do not play in your league -- almost no one does,
after all -- so there is no realistic way to
compare my experiences with yours.

So I tried to think of analogies. And the more
I think of them, the more I see different ways
to be a contrarian.

Perhaps by mentioning some of them in the same
comment I was only confusing the issue.

My apologies.

John
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin Hanson,</p>
<p>You are correct. In my post I was not drawing on<br />
my own experience. But that would be difficult.<br />
I do not play in your league &#8212; almost no one does,<br />
after all &#8212; so there is no realistic way to<br />
compare my experiences with yours.</p>
<p>So I tried to think of analogies. And the more<br />
I think of them, the more I see different ways<br />
to be a contrarian.</p>
<p>Perhaps by mentioning some of them in the same<br />
comment I was only confusing the issue.</p>
<p>My apologies.</p>
<p>John</p>
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		<title>By: Zubon</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/09/even-when-contr.html#comment-415064</link>
		<dc:creator>Zubon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 17:58:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/09/even-when-contrarians-win-they-lose.html#comment-415064</guid>
		<description>Is that a desire for anecdote?

I may recall a better citation later, but I did a quick search for the discussion this reminded me of.  Unsurprisingly, it has its roots in an Overcoming Bias post from Robin Hanson.  A chain of links:

http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/02/ads_advise_prof.html
http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2007/02/trailing_the_truth.cfm
http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2007/03/puzzled_by_brad.html
http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2007/03/the_fighting_punditariat.cfm

Key quote (from the second link, unnamed Economist writer, Ms.McArdle?):
&lt;blockquote&gt;Overall, though, the influence seems to be very different from that in academia.  Mr Hanson implies that career considerations make academics more conservatives, handing their peers and superiors things they expect to hear.  In journalism, I suspect that the incentive is to take unlikely positions.  It&#039;s sort of like having a stock option.  The problem with giving executives stock options is that there is no downside to them if the company does poorly; from the newly-endowed executive&#039;s perspective, a company that muddles along doing exactly as well as expected is just as bad as a company where the stock has lost half its value, because his options only pay off if the company does better than expected, causing the stock price to rise.  That gives him an incentive to take unnecessary risks.

Similarly, pundits are almost never punished for being wildly wrong about something.  Nor are they rewarded for being right about something—along with 7,000 other pundits.  For journalists, a prediction pays off only if it is both right, and unusual.  This gives them an incentive to take unnecessary risks, making somewhat outlandish predictions on the off chance that they will be right.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is that a desire for anecdote?</p>
<p>I may recall a better citation later, but I did a quick search for the discussion this reminded me of.  Unsurprisingly, it has its roots in an Overcoming Bias post from Robin Hanson.  A chain of links:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/02/ads_advise_prof.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/02/ads_advise_prof.html</a><br />
<a href="http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2007/02/trailing_the_truth.cfm" rel="nofollow">http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2007/02/trailing_the_truth.cfm</a><br />
<a href="http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2007/03/puzzled_by_brad.html" rel="nofollow">http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2007/03/puzzled_by_brad.html</a><br />
<a href="http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2007/03/the_fighting_punditariat.cfm" rel="nofollow">http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2007/03/the_fighting_punditariat.cfm</a></p>
<p>Key quote (from the second link, unnamed Economist writer, Ms.McArdle?):</p>
<blockquote><p>Overall, though, the influence seems to be very different from that in academia.  Mr Hanson implies that career considerations make academics more conservatives, handing their peers and superiors things they expect to hear.  In journalism, I suspect that the incentive is to take unlikely positions.  It&#8217;s sort of like having a stock option.  The problem with giving executives stock options is that there is no downside to them if the company does poorly; from the newly-endowed executive&#8217;s perspective, a company that muddles along doing exactly as well as expected is just as bad as a company where the stock has lost half its value, because his options only pay off if the company does better than expected, causing the stock price to rise.  That gives him an incentive to take unnecessary risks.</p>
<p>Similarly, pundits are almost never punished for being wildly wrong about something.  Nor are they rewarded for being right about something—along with 7,000 other pundits.  For journalists, a prediction pays off only if it is both right, and unusual.  This gives them an incentive to take unnecessary risks, making somewhat outlandish predictions on the off chance that they will be right.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Robin Hanson</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/09/even-when-contr.html#comment-415063</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Hanson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 14:39:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/09/even-when-contrarians-win-they-lose.html#comment-415063</guid>
		<description>Shakespeare and Zubon, you don&#039;t seem to be speaking from personal observation or experience.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shakespeare and Zubon, you don&#8217;t seem to be speaking from personal observation or experience.</p>
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		<title>By: Zubon</title>
		<link>http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/09/even-when-contr.html#comment-415062</link>
		<dc:creator>Zubon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 14:17:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://prod.ob.trike.com.au/2007/09/even-when-contrarians-win-they-lose.html#comment-415062</guid>
		<description>I thought the argument about pundits and the sorts of &quot;public experts&quot; you see on TV was that they had an incentive to make contrarian predictions because there are large rewards for being surprising and right, no effects from being conventional, and virtually no penalties for being surprising and wrong.  Going with the herd will not sell many books, but making wild predictions pays off handsomely if you win, and everyone will forget in a few months if you are wrong.  Once everyone forgets, get back on TV with your new wild prediction, sell your new book for as long as you can, and either really cash in if you are right or move to the next one if you are wrong.

It is far from being a scientist or academic, but I would think that there would be some carry-over.  If nothing else, the contrarian should be able to catch this wave with a book and some self-promotion.  If we have pundits cashing in on radical ideas, the same opportunity should apply to any idea marketable to the public.  Maybe contrarians just need a bit more media savvy.

Heck, if someone can sell conventional academic ideas as &quot;heterodox economics,&quot; we should see Seth Roberts on TV every night under the heading, &quot;Check out this wild idea, and buy his new book!&quot;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought the argument about pundits and the sorts of &#8220;public experts&#8221; you see on TV was that they had an incentive to make contrarian predictions because there are large rewards for being surprising and right, no effects from being conventional, and virtually no penalties for being surprising and wrong.  Going with the herd will not sell many books, but making wild predictions pays off handsomely if you win, and everyone will forget in a few months if you are wrong.  Once everyone forgets, get back on TV with your new wild prediction, sell your new book for as long as you can, and either really cash in if you are right or move to the next one if you are wrong.</p>
<p>It is far from being a scientist or academic, but I would think that there would be some carry-over.  If nothing else, the contrarian should be able to catch this wave with a book and some self-promotion.  If we have pundits cashing in on radical ideas, the same opportunity should apply to any idea marketable to the public.  Maybe contrarians just need a bit more media savvy.</p>
<p>Heck, if someone can sell conventional academic ideas as &#8220;heterodox economics,&#8221; we should see Seth Roberts on TV every night under the heading, &#8220;Check out this wild idea, and buy his new book!&#8221;</p>
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